A delicate perfume perhaps can be found in cazetiers more so than cdbs. Also, I am not so sure how much of haunting red fruit can be shown at this stage. IMO, a delicate perfume, and a red fruited haunting nature seems more like chambole than a gevrey. BTW I think the 08s have perfect maturity/ripeness for the classical burgundy lovers as I posted earlier.
I personally think that understanding Gevrey, requires an understanding of Nebbiolo structures to wine and thus are wildly misunderstood… Of course, this is simply my opinion. In fact I find Gevrey on the whole very similar to Piemontese Nebbiolo so long as you understand that the wines are not BIG as many assume. As such, one could say Chambolle is bigger but that depends on how you define BIG in terms of wine.
Just an opinion as always, and very personal… Which brings me back to my point, whilst 08s may be on the whole pretty… Ripeness is not something that sticks out particularly in all those I’ve tried and the for me at least better (within the context of the vintage) 09s and thus as soon as I saw ripeness mentioned in the note, I would be worried. Again, an opinion, take it or leave it.
One man’s ripe is another man’s perfume and elegance; one man’s fresh is another’s lean and weedy.
Really?
So if we were talking about '09’s here, then that’s what you would also expect to find??
Nah.
A few thoughts, and disclosure. I tasted with Mounir in Beaune earlier this year. I have not sold a single bottle of LLM. I tasted a wide range of LLM reds and whites from 08 and 09. Perhaps I taste too much CaliPN, but none of the red wines I tasted leaned too far in that direction. The whites, as Mounir suggested, seemed to be wines meant for the cellar. Based on what I have read here and elsewhere, I was expecting the wines to be much “bigger” and friendlier. Mounir wasn’t the most question-friendly guy I’ve met - he liked to make speeches a lot more than he liked questions, but he did acknowledge his awareness after my queries that some see his wines as “over-oaked and over-extracted.” I saw them as quite expensive, but there were many fine wines tasted, and I found it quite interesting that others in our company not caught up in Burgundy Doctrine found the wines quite compelling. In fact, many Burgundy critics and consumers outside of this board find the recent LLM wines compelling Burgundies. FWIW.
Thoughts:
- Ripeness described in an 08 Grand Cru - last time I checked, Grand Crus were “Grand” because the terroirs in question produce ripe grapes in challenging years. They may be brighter wines, but anyone looking for non-ripe 08 Grand Cru reds is, well, an idiot. You don’t understand terroir, just trendy winemaking doctrine and cool buzzwords.
- Claiming a wine didn’t preserve terroir because of a tasting note author’s textural choices - Pure unintentional comedy.
- Received wisdom about certain Burgundy producers spread as gospel on this board and EBob back in the day- I can remember reading posts trashing producers as “over-oaked and over-extracted” written by people who openly admitted having not tasted a recent vintage from the producer, in spite of positive Tanzer, Schildknecht and Meadows reviews to the contrary. Perrot-Minot comes to mind - 02 and 03 were oakalicious, but 08 and 09 show Christophe with a much more gentle hand…(I sell PM retail - and HATE the oak and extraction of his 02s…)
- @ Mike de Lange - I have a lot of respect for your palate (going back to EBob), but one vintage tasted does not make one an expert…I would be interested to see your thoughts about 08 and 09 LLM…
Not to any extreme degree or most measures, as noted in the 2009 thread:
https://wineimport.discoursehosting.net/t/lets-talk-2009-burgundies-in-bottle/49470/15
Let me put some definitions in there, because clearly it is either s**t on the Brit or I’m being completely misunderstood.
Bill, I mentioned it was a hot year, but not Thr hottest. There are plenty of issues with 09… I did taste over a thousand samples in London in January when most people over the pond were still simply dreaming.
Mr. Coley,
I have a good grasp of terroir… In fact I tasted plenty of wines in barrel and as barrel samples from 08. As I work in the trade in London, I get to do this… I also buy a lot and cellar it. I know that Grand Crus are the riper wines, I am talking about over ripe wines when I say ripe. in fact I live for plenty of the time in France and have been in Burgundy four times in the last three months and will be there twice over the next two months again. My knowledge is not exhaustive, but I know enough to know that the best Grand Cru wines do not taste ripe. they have fruit flavours which hint of ripe grapes in the vineyard, but they do not taste ripe.
Thr best 09s and in fact many do have bright acids, just not as bright as 08 or 07. There is a thought that a lot of new oak was used in 09… I do not take kindly to being called an idiot, especially when I have producers asking me if I am coming to visit!
In fact scrap that last post… Grand Crus are not the ripest, they are the most complex. The grapes ripen slower than others, because they are usually higher up the slopes where they get more of the early morning mist, more drainage of water and thus more concentration and intensity, and also more of the cooler breezes that run through Burgundy. If they are so ripe and grand, why is Le Chambertin the last vineyard to fully ripen, when everything on the plains has been picked a week earlier? The best 1er Crus share these characteristics with Grand Crus. 08 in terms of sunlight was a more challenging vintage… I would be hard pressed to find ripeness thus in these wines with the amount of weather/climatic aspects that descend on Grand Cru vineyards for longer.
Grand Crus are in the middle because they get the perfect amount, flanked by 1er Crus that either get too much (higher up) and too little (further down) with good anomalies. Terroir is not just about soil and aspect but all sorts of other little micro-climatic notions… The early mists and the breeze that keep things cool to maintain acids, etc, etc. If it is just about ripeness, the village wines on the plains, ripen earlier and faster on the whole, so by some definitions, why are they not the Grand Crus??
When I mentioned the descriptors of another taster, I simply mentioned that the flavours for the wine, do not sound as if they would appeal to me… I was not ridiculing anyone’s palate, and would be happy to taste the wine both non-blind or blind. I also wouldn’t pick out the same flavours… Everyone has a different palate. Two people will describe wood in a wine in different ways… One may pick iy out as wood, some as vanilla, some as sulphur/egg and others as toast.
Again, calling me an idiot or laughable is plain wrong, and shows a deep disrespect for another’s opinion. Having worked with wine and spending every minute of my day tasting, thinking and visiting winemakers and discussing wine may have tainted my thoughts… I now have to be careful of creating conflicts of interest as I have worked closely with a few people now and for a number of years. It is interesting to hear people’s comments and ideas of what they think terroir is and which areas have really good terroir as nowhere is better, they are simply different, and a knowledge of books and the history of AOCs will no doubt show that there is still plenty of debate, much of it may not be founded in science either, but simply opinions of people who studied the soils and the wines. A lot of the so-called super premier Crus are not Grand Crus, because the owners simply didn’t push for it, in order to pay lower taxes on the wines. This is one of the various reasons that makes Burgundy both baffling and fascinating at the same time.
I’ll stop now, because clearly some don’t appreciate other people’s opinions…
Have you had any of the wines recent in bottle, in particular the 08 LLM CDB?
Barolis have so many different styles hence different structures and I don’t think it is fair to make a generalization. Also do you find Chambole big in what ways? Are you specifically referring to Bonne Mares? Chambolle is my second favorite commune after Vosne because I find them pretty, delicate and decadent. I prefer my burgundies with at least 20 years cellaring but when I drink a young burgundy, I love the sappiness. This was clearly ripe but as I stated not overdone.
Kevin,
As I stated, I haven’t tried this particular bottle. I may have tasted post malo samples, in Jan 2010 but I can’t remember, perhaps due to it not being memorable to me personally.
I find Gevrey to be delicate, perfumed and structured (my comments on piedmont is in reference…) to tannin (being with Burgundy my forte) and not style. Tannin can mask the character. I find Chambolle to be more rounded and more plump, with more up front fruit. Hence my claim about weight. This is nit driven by ripeness but terroir, and these characters are mire obvious when tasting pre-malo wines. Again, I am not trying to take you to task about anything but simply stating MY opinions to which people are allowed to differ. CdB is probably my favorite climat in the whole of the Côte d’Or and I make efforts to taste various different ones as often as possible because of this.
Jim,
As a rule, I don’t participate in pissing contests and despite my earlier effort to diffuse the situation, this thread is starting to resemble one. However, since my name was mentioned I would first like to thank you for above acknowledgement of my olfactory skills. Furthermore, if you read my other posts you’ll notice that I already stated earlier that I am not an expert on the wines of LeMoine. That still doesn’t change the fact, that the experience I do have with them makes me feel perfectly justified to issue statements about their house style.
It has been mentioned somewhere that they (probably?) didn’t alter their vinification practices much -if at all- since 2002, other than some tweaking here and there. Whether one appreciates a style based on high extraction levels, late harvesting and high percentages of noticable new oak is of course completely personal. I just happen to have very different preferences and I feel no need to allocate my limited funds to an expensive négociant whose style does not correspond with them. For further investigation into Lemoine’s wines I will therefore have to rely on the kindness of strangers, acquaintances and friends.
By the way, I attribute the fact that their 2008s seem to have more freshness and elegance to the character of the vintage more than anything else. Now, if their 2009s would be nervously styled, THAT would be an indication of a style change indeed.
Mike,
AFAIK, Mounir buys wine in barrel from various suppliers and handles the elevage - so, what vinification processeses do you consider typical for the house that destroy terroir? Particularly in 08 and 09?
Also, you seem to be admitting that you are bashing wines you haven’t actually tasted without the kindness of strangers. And acquaintances. And friends. They are expensive, indeed, but tasting notes of wines personally untasted are, well, useless.
Again, as noted, have yet to sell a single bottle of LLM.
Jeez. Quit crying. Boo-hoo. Happy you have tasted plenty of Burgundy recently and have decided you are the king of Clos de Beze. I have a little history there too. I’m glad you’ve suddenly opened yourself to other’s opinions about terroir…
I have tasted every single wine from Le Moine since the 1999 vintage , both in barrel and bottle . This is because I am a friend of Mounir ( I am not in the trade ). There is no question that the red wine house style has dramatically changed : from the big , extracted dark wine towards more finesse and elegance . The best examples are the Vosne Romanee wines from 2008 who all display pure fruit , nice acidities and light to medium in color . Read Burghound , Tanzer and now Galloni for confirmation .
There is a house style , no doubt . There is sweetness in the wine , absolutey not to be confused with extraction . It comes from the prolongued contact with the lees , giving the wine more fleshness and texture . These wines are the absolute opposite of the " old day Burgundy " , lean and mean with awfull acidities . But all the wines taste different , reflections of the terroir . Most wines get elevage on new barrels but I do not find them overly oaked .
Because of the wine making techniques ,the wines need to be decanted in order too be appreciated . Also , you need to taste them young ( now 2006 and 2007 ) or wait a good 15 years before opening them again . ( the 2005’s are completely shut down now ).
I am less of a fan of the white wines , the aromatics and color of many are similar to California Chardonnay … but many people would love that style ( I have many in the family who love the slightly sweeter , creamy whites , especially the female side of my family … I like more pronounced acidities ). But the Perrieres & Genevrieres is a wine I buy every year , love it .
The wines are very expensive , that’s the real downside . So go for the better premier cru’s like VR Malconsorts and Gaudichots . If price is less of a problem , try the Bonnes Mares , Clos de la Roche , Chambolle Amoureuses and Chambertin Clos de Beze , always at the top in any vintage .
Appreciate your balanced views Herwig!
I was inches from letting this one go by without injecting some reason into the conversation, but figured I should try to do just that.
Jim, first of all, I cannot understand the tone in your posts. They seem misplaced, if nothing else. Neither Mike nor Jonathan need to be defended, but since I am a part of this community, felt it potentially acceptable to share some thoughts with you.
Jonathan’s ‘ripe’ comments have at times been used to communicate ‘over ripeness’. Green berries in red Burgundy is not a preference which I believe he or many others have.
It is less than fair to expect everyone to be at the same level of experience and understanding in a topic. Surely there are better ways to communicate our thoughts, impressions, experiences and preferences while respecting others at the same time. In failing to do so, you risk losing an opportunity of learning more from the other in following interactions.
“Ripeness described in an 08 Grand Cru - last time I checked, Grand Crus were “Grand” because the terroirs in question produce ripe grapes in challenging years. They may be brighter wines, but anyone looking for non-ripe 08 Grand Cru reds is, well, an idiot. You don’t understand terroir, just trendy winemaking doctrine and cool buzzwords.” - J Coley
The above reference to Grand Crus isn’t exactly complete. Just three brief comments:
- There is a good measure of importance in a Grand Cru being a unique and complete expression.
- Ripeness is something that typically fluctuates inside of each vineyard, even Grands Crus.
- A ‘challenging year’ doesn’t necessarily mean a lack or difficulty in ripening.
Ray,
With all due respect, Jonathan made a comment on my TN and Jim simply responded. I have never had the pleasure of meeting Jim but I have always enjoyed his posts. Both Jim and I have had passion for wines for awhile and at least for me and I am sure for Jim as well, we are as passionate as ever. If one is willing to be so critical and give the notion that he has the authorities in the subject matter, he outta be able to take the criticisms.
Btw, do you also find delicate a delicate perfume, and a red fruited haunting nature in the 08 CDB at this stage?
Hey Kevin
True, true. But, simply responding and calling someone an idiot is another matter altogether. Or so I would have thought. Forgetting my opinions on speaking to someone like that, I wanted to address the ripe/over ripe deal since it was a part of the statement that was made.
As for what I think of the wines, well, I won’t be commenting as I am quite careful in which producers I chose to speak about.
I have read Jim’s and your notes for most of the time that I have known about wines. I enjoy reading your posts, and generally Jim’s as well. Jonathan helped me during harvest. With those biases laid out, I still have but one interest and that is to have more threads that are of real content. Your tasting note obviously added content, my intention in responding was to keep things in perspective, provide insight into the ripe/over ripe bit and to share some.
Hey Ray,
I posted this on ERP.
All the 08s drank had perfect ripeness expressed via sweet sappy fruit without losing the freshness. I don’t think this is necessarily due to the high acidity but the layered fruit expression in which fresh berries and fruit preserves co-exist. I also found the same ripeness in the whites drank, e.g. 08 Dauvissat clos when first opened show ripe almost red fruit with piercing acidity and minerality, the third night the fruit had subsided displaying laser-like focus not that the first night didn’t show the focus.
What is your thought on the 08s? For me the whites are far superior than the 09s, the reds just two very different animals, ie the 08s vs the 09s.
BTW, It is difficult to discuss ‘overripe’ Burgundies as this rarely occurs in Burgundy perhaps the 03s being the exception.
Hey Kevin
I actually generally prefer the 08s to the 09s in the hypothetical situation of drinking something today, this evening. I am biased in the fact that I personally started in 2009. However, in spite of this my personal purchases have been 3:2 in favor of 08. I liked them early on when others on the board weren’t finding much joy in them.
Of course, I like 2009. But, as you mentioned, they are just different, not better or worse.
It is still interesting to speak about degree of ripeness since this is very much so an important aspect of red Burgundy. Over ripeness? Much less so as it is less often that this is to be found. However, ‘ripe’ was used by Jonathan in the moments which I was speaking to in the context of 08s not being overly ripe, though he used ‘ripe’ to communicate the same.
Jim,
I let this all blow-over originally. I rarely take offense, but you did call me an idiot and that is not particularly polite. I am not willing to get into a slanging match and wasn’t attempting to start anything but stating my opinions.
I am quite happy to let this blow over, and enjoy reading the balanced thoughts of all who have taken part in the thread and continue to do so.
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