Lucien LeMoine 2010s. Finesse and elgance and then some...

[k_s_h_i_n]

Ray,
What I drank so far indicates that the fruits were perfectly matured in the 08s. What is interesting, at least based on PCs and GCs that I drank, is that the layered fruit expression displays both very ripe fruits and fresh crushed berries. Also very sweet nose but cool palate. Although the wines have the bright acidity, the fruit expression is what drives the wine.

[Howard_Cooper]

It is fascinating to watch the conversation here between Ray and Kevin, speaking as a friend of both of them. Personality-wise, they are very opposite. Ray speaks about wine largely with passion, but there is a precision underpinning to his words. Kevin speaks very precisely, almost trying to keep emotion out of his tasting notes and discussions of wine, but the passion is really there as an underpinning. Coming from two opposite ends, you two almost get to the same place. I don’t know if you two have met, but if not I bet you would get along very well.

Ray, yet another reason for you to finally get to DC.

"I have tasted every single wine from Le Moine since the 1999 vintage , both in barrel and bottle . This is because I am a friend of Mounir ( I am not in the trade ). "

If anyone ever wants to know how to let everyone know their biases (this is not really a conflict) when posting in a complete yet compact way, this is it. Well done Herwig. When you posted this, my mind went back to running into the two of you together at Ma Cuisine about four years ago in Burgundy.

[Mike_de_Lange]

Ray,

Thanks for stepping up to the plate, regardless of whether Jonathan and I need to be defended. I appreciate the sentiment. In any case, I have written all I wish to say on this subject and I see no reasons to rectify a single thing. If people feel a need to get their panties in a bind because others have the gall to dislike their favourite producer that’s their prerogative, but I won’t be having any part in it.

[Ray_Walker]

@Kevin Shin

Ray,
What I drank so far indicates that the fruits were perfectly matured in the 08s. What is interesting, at least based on PCs and GCs that I drank, is that the layered fruit expression displays both very ripe fruits and fresh crushed berries. Also very sweet nose but cool palate. Although the wines have the bright acidity, the fruit expression is what drives the wine.

Hey Kevin,
I’ve found similar things as well. There is a freshness to the fruit in many to most 08s that is really a pleasure. I see what you mean by the coolness of the fruit since thee seems to be a lift from the acids but generally things are well balanced with ample fruit. The village level has been a bit disappointing so far from what I’ve tasted while the higher classes and Bourgogne did well. I have a few thoughts on why that is, but will keep theories such as this close to the vest.

In bringing 2010 into play here, there is a strong resemblance, though I have seen more ‘flesh’, concentration and intensity in the 10s than I saw in the 08s when in barrel.

With looking toward 09, this is the type of vintage that I think will be more difficult to generalize. Certainly a year that value can be had in the ‘lower’ classes, and possibly too much early on for the level of front loaded fruit. From tasting my 09s and others, the 09s are picking up structure just prior to bottling. I haven’t spoken with many about recent thoughts on 09s and haven’t tasted mine in a while either.


There is one thing that I can take away from this. Consumers are in a really good situation with the last 10 vintages, short of 04 (generally speaking). Prices are tough in a lot of situations, but there have been a few excellent vintages that didn’t receive too much critical attention relative to their quality.

@Howard Cooper

It is fascinating to watch the conversation here between Ray and Kevin, speaking as a friend of both of them. Personality-wise, they are very opposite. Ray speaks about wine largely with passion, but there is a precision underpinning to his words. Kevin speaks very precisely, almost trying to keep emotion out of his tasting notes and discussions of wine, but the passion is really there as an underpinning. Coming from two opposite ends, you two almost get to the same place. I don’t know if you two have met, but if not I bet you would get along very well.

Ray, yet another reason for you to finally get to DC.

Really nice of you to say, thank you! I’m certainly looking forward to getting to DC some time in the future!

[Howard_Cooper]

@Ray Walker

I’ve found similar things as well. There is a freshness to the fruit in many to most 08s that is really a pleasure. I see what you mean by the coolness of the fruit since thee seems to be a lift from the acids but generally things are well balanced with ample fruit. The village level has been a bit disappointing so far from what I’ve tasted while the higher classes and Bourgogne did well. I have a few thoughts on why that is, but will keep theories such as this close to the vest.

In bringing 2010 into play here, there is a strong resemblance, though I have seen more ‘flesh’, concentration and intensity in the 10s than I saw in the 08s when in barrel.

I am not sure I would say taht the 08s “generally” are balanced with ample fruit. The good ones certainly are, but when I was at the Paulee in NY I found some wines that were missing a middle. When the wines are balanced with ample fruit (and a whole lot are) I think the wines are a joy and will be really good, but I think that 08 is one of those vintages that will separate the good producers from the less good producers.

With respect to 2010s, I have only tasted 2010s from 4 producers - Jadot, Cecile Tremblay, Mugneret Gibourg and some outfit you may have heard of called Maison Ilan. If those wines are any indication of the rest of Burgundy (not certain as these are really good producers), the vintage will be outstanding. Glad I got some from those Ilan guys.

[Claude_Kolm]

@Howard Cooper

When the wines are balanced with ample fruit (and a whole lot are) I think the wines are a joy and will be really good, but I think that 08 is one of those vintages that will separate the good producers from the less good producers.

It’s more complicated than that, IMO, Howard. There are some very good producers that seriously disappointed in 2008.

[JonoBeagle]

Is that not Thr joy of Burgundy? Or the bane if you stick to Bordeaux?

I think there are some great 09s and some awful 09s, and I think that with 10 and 08 and 07 and 06, one will find the same things. Age will be kind to the worst as it always is, but Burgundy has always been about picking and choosing out of Thr bunch, even from the best producers. It is rare to have an 05 where everything is good, but then being subjective, some will not like how the 05s taste.

Anyway, not trying to be controversial, just saying that well, Burgundy is Burgundy.

[Ray_Walker]

@Howard Cooper

@Ray Walker

I’ve found similar things as well. There is a freshness to the fruit in many to most 08s that is really a pleasure. I see what you mean by the coolness of the fruit since thee seems to be a lift from the acids but generally things are well balanced with ample fruit. The village level has been a bit disappointing so far from what I’ve tasted while the higher classes and Bourgogne did well. I have a few thoughts on why that is, but will keep theories such as this close to the vest.

In bringing 2010 into play here, there is a strong resemblance, though I have seen more ‘flesh’, concentration and intensity in the 10s than I saw in the 08s when in barrel.

I am not sure I would say taht the 08s “generally” are balanced with ample fruit. The good ones certainly are, but when I was at the Paulee in NY I found some wines that were missing a middle. When the wines are balanced with ample fruit (and a whole lot are) I think the wines are a joy and will be really good, but I think that 08 is one of those vintages that will separate the good producers from the less good producers.

With respect to 2010s, I have only tasted 2010s from 4 producers - Jadot, Cecile Tremblay, Mugneret Gibourg and some outfit you may have heard of called Maison Ilan. If those wines are any indication of the rest of Burgundy (not certain as these are really good producers), the vintage will be outstanding. Glad I got some from those Ilan guys.

Thanks, Howard. Excellent company to be in. Hopefully one day our wines might earn the praise. Much too early to say.

When I typed ‘ample’ I figured this might be too generous of a word. I meant to place it in the context of the balance, looking generally of course. What I neglected to mention was that I have found many village level wines dilute, often mores than the Bourgogne level. The level of intensity in the fruit of the wines that I have enjoyed in 2008 have not been lacking. Of course, we cannot generalize too confidently with Burgundy as it is a place built on exceptions, with both broad and fine degrees of differences at play. But, the wines I am buying in 08 have been fairly intense, balanced, with lower perceptible (to me) levels of oak and extraction. I have bought a few villages that I didn’t think have the goods, but time will tell, as it typically does.

My pleasure, Mike. Always willing to tread through shit when it is the best step forward

[billnanson]

@JonoBeagle

Is that not Thr joy of Burgundy? Or the bane if you stick to Bordeaux?
I think there are some great 09s and some awful 09s,

Amply emphasised at a recent tastevinage tasting; a number of poor 09s and surprisingly not for the usual complaints of ‘ripe and easy’ - quite the reverse, unripe and green. What on earth are some people doing…

[Peter_Chiu]

@JonoBeagle

Jim,

I let this all blow-over originally. I rarely take offense, but you did call me an idiot and that is not particularly polite. I am not willing to get into a slanging match and wasn’t attempting to start anything but stating my opinions.

I am quite happy to let this blow over, and enjoy reading the balanced thoughts of all who have taken part in the thread and continue to do so.

In reality…perhaps Burgundy lovers are idiots ? No…

[Peter_Chiu]

@Mike de Lange

Ray,

Thanks for stepping up to the plate, regardless of whether Jonathan and I need to be defended. I appreciate the sentiment. In any case, I have written all I wish to say on this subject and I see no reasons to rectify a single thing. If people feel a need to get their panties in a bind because others have the gall to dislike their favourite producer that’s their prerogative, but I won’t be having any part in it.

Mike…

[Claude_Kolm]

@JonoBeagle

Is that not Thr joy of Burgundy? Or the bane if you stick to Bordeaux?

I think there are some great 09s and some awful 09s, and I think that with 10 and 08 and 07 and 06, one will find the same things. Age will be kind to the worst as it always is, but Burgundy has always been about picking and choosing out of Thr bunch, even from the best producers. It is rare to have an 05 where everything is good, but then being subjective, some will not like how the 05s taste.

Anyway, not trying to be controversial, just saying that well, Burgundy is Burgundy.

Jonathan – I presume that this is in response to my comment that a number of good producers did not perform up to par in 2008.

I think that the failures in 2008 were unusual – other vintages can be very unequal, e.g., 2007 and 2006 to name but two recent ones, and yet I can come up with a list of producers that you can buy blind from in vintages such as that because those producers can be counted on to have done the work in the vineyards and not to screw it up in the cellar. But several of those producers did seriously underperform in 2008 – a phenomenon that may be unique in my experience with Burgundy. For those that got it right in 2008, though, I find the wines very attractive.

[JonoBeagle]

Claude, indeed it is the reason for that comment!

Who did you think underperformed? Not to argue about anything, but because I am seriously intriguing as to your opinions. I am a fan of 08s especially at the 1er and Grand Cru level on the whole, and have enjoyed some village as well to date.

[jcoley3]

@Ray Walker

I was inches from letting this one go by without injecting some reason into the conversation, but figured I should try to do just that.

Jim, first of all, I cannot understand the tone in your posts. They seem misplaced, if nothing else. Neither Mike nor Jonathan need to be defended, but since I am a part of this community, felt it potentially acceptable to share some thoughts with you.

Jonathan’s ‘ripe’ comments have at times been used to communicate ‘over ripeness’. Green berries in red Burgundy is not a preference which I believe he or many others have.

It is less than fair to expect everyone to be at the same level of experience and understanding in a topic. Surely there are better ways to communicate our thoughts, impressions, experiences and preferences while respecting others at the same time. In failing to do so, you risk losing an opportunity of learning more from the other in following interactions.

“Ripeness described in an 08 Grand Cru - last time I checked, Grand Crus were “Grand” because the terroirs in question produce ripe grapes in challenging years. They may be brighter wines, but anyone looking for non-ripe 08 Grand Cru reds is, well, an idiot. You don’t understand terroir, just trendy winemaking doctrine and cool buzzwords.” - J Coley

The above reference to Grand Crus isn’t exactly complete. Just three brief comments:

1. There is a good measure of importance in a Grand Cru being a unique and complete expression.
2. Ripeness is something that typically fluctuates inside of each vineyard, even Grands Crus.
3. A ‘challenging year’ doesn’t necessarily mean a lack or difficulty in ripening.

Ray,

I was reluctant to revive this thread, but as I did just send an apology to Jonathan via PM, I thought I would offer a general ‘mea culpa’ for my poor tone while trying to make the points I envisioned with a touch more class.

1. The interchange of “ripe” for “over-ripe”. They are two different things. Great wines are made from ripe grapes. If you are using “ripe” as a criticism, you are failing the language. “Over-ripe”, on the other hand, makes sense. Don’t make “ripe” into an Overton Window for wine. Ripe flavors are different from over-ripe flavors and the words should not be interchanged. Part of the completeness you mention regarding Grand Crus is that perfect ripeness is attainable in a much wider window of picking because the vineyard is so good. My example would be Montrachets from Ramonet and DRC – two very different philosophies, but two mind-blowing wines that are very different expressions of picking – one early and one late - but both are “ripe” by any intelligent defintion of the word. Put another way, how many great unripe 08 Granch Crus did you taste? And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maisn Ilan?

2. Assuming a producer fits one style based on tasting one vintage and subsequent hearsay is unfair to the producer. Apologies to Mike de Lange. I have talked to far too many wine producers around the world who revised and revisited what they did from one year from the next to think that I know enough about the wines to speak like a boss on what they did without actually tasting the current vintage.

3)Too many people make their buying decisions about Burgundy based on a vintage snapshot that will quickly fade – myself included! I have fifteen years of buying in Burgundy, and I feel like I still have a lot to learn. I have recently said elsewhere on this site that my view of “lesser” and “good” vintages often comes up short. I suspect that many Burgundy geeks who are talking themnelves into passng on 09 for Overton-window ripeness will be somewhat sorry when the vintage matures.

[Peter_Chiu]

@jcoley3

@Ray Walker

I was inches from letting this one go by without injecting some reason into the conversation, but figured I should try to do just that.

Jim, first of all, I cannot understand the tone in your posts. They seem misplaced, if nothing else. Neither Mike nor Jonathan need to be defended, but since I am a part of this community, felt it potentially acceptable to share some thoughts with you.

Jonathan’s ‘ripe’ comments have at times been used to communicate ‘over ripeness’. Green berries in red Burgundy is not a preference which I believe he or many others have.

It is less than fair to expect everyone to be at the same level of experience and understanding in a topic. Surely there are better ways to communicate our thoughts, impressions, experiences and preferences while respecting others at the same time. In failing to do so, you risk losing an opportunity of learning more from the other in following interactions.

“Ripeness described in an 08 Grand Cru - last time I checked, Grand Crus were “Grand” because the terroirs in question produce ripe grapes in challenging years. They may be brighter wines, but anyone looking for non-ripe 08 Grand Cru reds is, well, an idiot. You don’t understand terroir, just trendy winemaking doctrine and cool buzzwords.” - J Coley

The above reference to Grand Crus isn’t exactly complete. Just three brief comments:

1. There is a good measure of importance in a Grand Cru being a unique and complete expression.
2. Ripeness is something that typically fluctuates inside of each vineyard, even Grands Crus.
3. A ‘challenging year’ doesn’t necessarily mean a lack or difficulty in ripening.

Ray,

I was reluctant to revive this thread, but as I did just send an apology to Jonathan via PM, I thought I would offer a general ‘mea culpa’ for my poor tone while trying to make the points I envisioned with a touch more class.

1. The interchange of “ripe” for “over-ripe”. They are two different things. Great wines are made from ripe grapes. If you are using “ripe” as a criticism, you are failing the language. “Over-ripe”, on the other hand, makes sense. Don’t make “ripe” into an Overton Window for wine. Ripe flavors are different from over-ripe flavors and the words should not be interchanged. Part of the completeness you mention regarding Grand Crus is that perfect ripeness is attainable in a much wider window of picking because the vineyard is so good. My example would be Montrachets from Ramonet and DRC – two very different philosophies, but two mind-blowing wines that are very different expressions of picking – one early and one late - but both are “ripe” by any intelligent defintion of the word. Put another way, how many great unripe 08 Granch Crus did you taste? And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maisn Ilan?

2. Assuming a producer fits one style based on tasting one vintage and subsequent hearsay is unfair to the producer. Apologies to Mike de Lange. I have talked to far too many wine producers around the world who revised and revisited what they did from one year from the next to think that I know enough about the wines to speak like a boss on what they did without actually tasting the current vintage.

3)Too many people make their buying decisions about Burgundy based on a vintage snapshot that will quickly fade – myself included! I have fifteen years of buying in Burgundy, and I feel like I still have a lot to learn. I have recently said elsewhere on this site that my view of “lesser” and “good” vintages often comes up short. I suspect that many Burgundy geeks who are talking themnelves into passng on 09 for Overton-window ripeness will be somewhat sorry when the vintage matures.

Jim…fascinating thoughts and thanks for revisiting this thread .

I would like to add some comments re your paragraph 3.

I settle down on buying wines from my preferred producers every year ( regardless the general charaters of each vintage year inlcuding a few bottles for vintage 2004 - just to check if Stuart is right or not ). Needless to say, the quantity ( for each year ) will vary and also depends on the release prices.

[Frank_Drew]

Thanks for your notes on recent wines, Robert; information/opinion is always good to have.

If they’re still using those monstrous bottles, do you think they would be receptive to suggestions for smaller bottles? Of those I’ve seen in stores, I thought the sheer size and weight quite off-putting. I know it’s what inside the bottles that counts, but still…

[JonoBeagle]

Jim, re-language, that will have repercussions and different people of different cultural background will use the same words in different ways. I think the UN recognises about 30 different types of English as individual languages, not subsets of English so it would be perfectly reasonable for me to think of ripe in a tasting note as bad, and in the states as good. Ripe in grape growing is a different matter.

Hell, pet means something completely different in Newcastle to London!

For the record, I’d almost forgotten about this thread but thank you for the apology it isn’t that big a deal really;

Re: your other points, I’m not going to disagree because as I have seemingly said before that Burgundy is a mine field and the only proof is in tasting and finding what one likes.

Bills notes on 09 above may be an eye-opener. Perhaps there was generally too much puppy fat which masked some issues of underripe pips and tannins which with receding puppy fat are coming to the fore in some wines??

\

I am here: Google Maps

[Ray_Walker]

@jcoley3

@Ray Walker

I was inches from letting this one go by without injecting some reason into the conversation, but figured I should try to do just that.

Jim, first of all, I cannot understand the tone in your posts. They seem misplaced, if nothing else. Neither Mike nor Jonathan need to be defended, but since I am a part of this community, felt it potentially acceptable to share some thoughts with you.

Jonathan’s ‘ripe’ comments have at times been used to communicate ‘over ripeness’. Green berries in red Burgundy is not a preference which I believe he or many others have.

It is less than fair to expect everyone to be at the same level of experience and understanding in a topic. Surely there are better ways to communicate our thoughts, impressions, experiences and preferences while respecting others at the same time. In failing to do so, you risk losing an opportunity of learning more from the other in following interactions.

“Ripeness described in an 08 Grand Cru - last time I checked, Grand Crus were “Grand” because the terroirs in question produce ripe grapes in challenging years. They may be brighter wines, but anyone looking for non-ripe 08 Grand Cru reds is, well, an idiot. You don’t understand terroir, just trendy winemaking doctrine and cool buzzwords.” - J Coley

The above reference to Grand Crus isn’t exactly complete. Just three brief comments:

1. There is a good measure of importance in a Grand Cru being a unique and complete expression.
2. Ripeness is something that typically fluctuates inside of each vineyard, even Grands Crus.
3. A ‘challenging year’ doesn’t necessarily mean a lack or difficulty in ripening.

Ray,

I was reluctant to revive this thread, but as I did just send an apology to Jonathan via PM, I thought I would offer a general ‘mea culpa’ for my poor tone while trying to make the points I envisioned with a touch more class.

1. The interchange of “ripe” for “over-ripe”. They are two different things. Great wines are made from ripe grapes. If you are using “ripe” as a criticism, you are failing the language. “Over-ripe”, on the other hand, makes sense. Don’t make “ripe” into an Overton Window for wine. Ripe flavors are different from over-ripe flavors and the words should not be interchanged. Part of the completeness you mention regarding Grand Crus is that perfect ripeness is attainable in a much wider window of picking because the vineyard is so good. My example would be Montrachets from Ramonet and DRC – two very different philosophies, but two mind-blowing wines that are very different expressions of picking – one early and one late - but both are “ripe” by any intelligent defintion of the word. Put another way, how many great unripe 08 Granch Crus did you taste? And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maisn Ilan?

2. Assuming a producer fits one style based on tasting one vintage and subsequent hearsay is unfair to the producer. Apologies to Mike de Lange. I have talked to far too many wine producers around the world who revised and revisited what they did from one year from the next to think that I know enough about the wines to speak like a boss on what they did without actually tasting the current vintage.

3)Too many people make their buying decisions about Burgundy based on a vintage snapshot that will quickly fade – myself included! I have fifteen years of buying in Burgundy, and I feel like I still have a lot to learn. I have recently said elsewhere on this site that my view of “lesser” and “good” vintages often comes up short. I suspect that many Burgundy geeks who are talking themnelves into passng on 09 for Overton-window ripeness will be somewhat sorry when the vintage matures.

Hey Jim
thanks for the post. I’ve no interest here other than to have things explained when an issue can be unwound. I felt it could, so I stepped in.

To your first point, I can understand what you are saying. However, what I was saying was that Jon wasn’t speaking in your same terms. That is all.

You asked, " And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maison Ilan?"

I don’t taste wines for my winery. I buy grapes and take the ball from there, in the vineyard. I have nothing against LeMoine, but our structure is quite different, especially in this respect.
To be specific in answering if my grapes were ripe, I’d say that they are.

Best

Ray

[Peter_Chiu]

You asked, " And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maison Ilan?"

This is a tricky question for anyone to answer.

How about try to answer this question : do producers harvest unripe grapes to make Grand-Cru wines in vintge 2009 and vintage 2010 ?

Logic tell me the anwer would be : no.

Producers harvest unripe grapes only when the weather does not co-operate. The weather condition for vintage 2009 and 2010 are fine.

My guess is…when the producers make their call for havvest, they all believe ( repeat : belive ) the ripeness of their grapes are at their best to fit the stuyle of wine when they intended to craft . Is my guess right ?

[Ray_Walker]

@Peter Chiu

You asked, " And how many unripe 09 and 10 Granc Cus (and otherwise) did you taste and select for Maison Ilan?"

This is a tricky question for anyone to answer.

How about try to answer this question : do producers harvest unripe grapes to make Grand-Cru wines in vintge 2009 and vintage 2010 ?

Logic tell me the anwer would be : no.

Producers harvest unripe grapes only when the weather does not co-operate. The weather condition for vintage 2009 and 2010 are fine.

My guess is…when the producers make their call for havvest, they all believe ( repeat : belive ) the ripeness of their grapes are at their best to fit the stuyle of wine when they intended to craft . Is my guess right ?

Peter,
I assume everyone does whatever it is that they feel is the right and/or best thing for them to do in any given situation.