I’ve got some very fine Puligny Folatieres 01 from here but I don’t understand the reds, they taste like the most caricaturish California Pinot noirs to me. It’s certainly possible that the oak will go and the wines stop tasting of pinot when they are old but they don’t seem to be marketed that way.
Once again, check in on 07-09 vintages. You might surprise yourself, and your expectations.
I have tasted almost the whole range of 07 and 08, Robert, though not 09. Would you say that my impression of pre 07 vintages is a fair one?
Count me as a partial convert to more recent vintages of Le Moine. The early wines (I first bought '99s) were too oaky and muddled from battonage for my taste, but I really enjoyed many of the '08 Le Moines. In particular, I loved some of the '08 Grand Crus (the Bonnes Mares Nord vs Sud comparison was fantastic) and excellent CdNuits 1ers (Malconsorts, Cazetiers, Lavaux). It his clear that the fruit sources are outstanding for a negociant. All of that said, I can’t recommend them across the board as I still found the oak treatment quite excessive on the '08 Volnay Caillerets and a minor nuisance in a Nuits LSG.
I’d say pre 05 the wines were definitely much more up and down, in the sense that they were more inconsistent, sometimes dominated by an overextraction and oakiness. It’s been interesting to see them hone their craft, learning along the way.
Having tried the 07s and 08s Tom, would you say that even those vintages don’t taste like pinot, and are caricatures of california-ish nature?? If so, well, then I don’t know what to say. A chacun son gout.
Thanks for chiming in Kevin. Maybe your opinion will be lumped into the entirely dismissible category as well…
It’s a bit like talking about the Faiveley wines; if everytime someone said that they liked a post 07 wine, and everyone kept saying, ‘oh well I had a 02 that was tough as nails, so this talk must all be hogwash’.
There are certain producers who seemingly elicit very strong idealogical responses, very often when people haven’t really tasted the wines. Mais bon, quoi faire… 
Recent wines that have been most impressive: 2005 Les Suchots, 2006 Amourouses, 2007 Cailles. The one great disappointment was the 2007 Romanee St. Vivant. The first three were very representative of their respective terroir, and delicious to boot, the RSV was an oak haters nightmare. The wines I liked were compelling enough to seek more bottles out. I still would seek out a few bottles here and there if I saw some good reports from respected tasters.
Sorry Nick, but I beg to differ. Here’s my note from last fall, slightly edited to remove references to the thread context:
Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru “Gaudichots” 2007 – Maison Lucien Lemoine
This wine has a medium-plus intense, dense ruby core with very little clearing at the edge. On the nose, medium-plus intense notes of damsons, red flowers, five-spice powder and anise are marred somewhat by candy floss-like wood notes.
While medium-plus bodied on the attack, this La Tâche cut-out is impressively dense on the mid-palate for a 2007, where it exhibits nice sève, more plums and sweet wood spice. Unfortunately, the texture is slightly spoiled by an oaky phenolic edge, which serves to accentuate the presence of the woolly medium tannins. The acidity is barely medium-plus, does lend some freshness and the initially medium-plus flavour intensity kicks it up another gear on the intense finish, although here too, the phenol-enhanced tannins have the last word after half a minute.
There is no doubt that this wine was made from very good material, but it’s too obviously laboured to merit top marks in my book. I feel that less new oak would have yielded a more balanced and therefore better wine. 90 points and this might improve as much as three with a minimum of 6 years in the cellar.
For purposes of clarity, the rest of this post is directed at Robert Panzer.
Since above encounter I have tasted a handful of other red wines from Lemoine: all 2007’s and a 2006 to see whether it was perhaps a one-off vintage phenomenon. While that hardly makes me a Lemoine expert, I feel perfectly justified in stating that the house style favours extraction, (very) late picking and lavish use of new oak.
In itself, that is of course fine and I’m sure there is an eager market out there for these wines, but elegant they are most certainly not and refined only if one’s idea of finesse equals varying shades of oak spice.
After your initial (over)reaction, I was going to refrain from pouring oil on the barrel-toasting fire, until I read your last post in which you are still maintaining your original statements. Several experienced Burgundy drinkers have posted opinions diametrically opposed to yours since the start of this thread, with a stern lesson in board mores to boot. I realize that you may have substantial financial interests in those wines, but might it be time to cut your losses?
I think Faiveley is an awful example here.
Those who said they were rustic previously are simply stating an opinion, but everyone including Faiveley admit that recent vintages are more giving and less on the harshly tannic side. The tannins are simply softer. The wines haven’t changed and Gouges is another example of this. No one has ever doubted the quality. They admit that they have changed tak and you can see that in the wines.
I don’t think that LeMoine consider their early vintages to be any different from present and if they do think that style has changed, then I have not heard it from them. They may say they are better but style is a different question altogether.
I didn’t find any notable change from earlier vintages, Robert, though I would be the first to accept that one shouldn’t take too much notice of pre-maturity showings and I wouldn’t be surprised if the wines turn out well eventually; I would, though, like it explicitly pointed out that these wines are meant for long ageing if that is the case. I assume from your reply that you have similar misgivings about the earlier wines.
I have read some glowing opinions of the wines and have thus been puzzled by my encounters with them but I certainly don’t regard the opinions of the journalists you cite as any more definitive than yours or mine. BTW you slightly misread my post-I was ‘complaining’ that they did taste of pinot, not that they didn’t.
FYI you will find it hard to find a Faiveley 02 that’s as hard as nails. Glorious wines, as are the 01s, and I hope the new regime can match this level.
No need to apologize Mike please feel free to disagree. These wines are difficult to get so I’m not exactly campaigning for them. I do tend to have catholic tastes in wine as long as they’re labeled Burgundy.
Also I do feel the need to point out something else. I think the bashing on Robert for his position as a retailer may have gone a little overboard here. He is hardly the winemaker or involved as the importer at least to my knowledge but a retailer that sells LeMoine as well as I’m sure a thousand other labels. No need to treat him like a Washington lobbyist.
Phil Franks opened the 02 Volnay Caillerets about an hour ago. I’m finding it murky and out of balance with a noticeable added acidity that makes it taste quite tart and lean. No bueno.
It’s got a nice, deep punt though!
The five finger punt
ROADHOUSE!
After reading this thread curiosity got the best of me and I committed infanticide.
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2008 Lucien Le Moine Chambertin-Clos de Bèze - France, Burgundy, Côte de Nuits, Chambertin-Clos de Bèze Grand Cru (9/22/2011)
Transparent and bright red that turned a bit darker with time. Candied cherry fruit, a hint of strawberry, ripe fruit but not overdone. The oak component is not noticeable. Nice spicy notes, already displaying complex fruit expression of mushroom, nutmeg, animal and earth that are nicely layered. The palate shows sappy fruit, bright piercing acidity and excellent concentration. This is an impressive scale wine that will require 15+ years of aging. 94 for now and I bet 97+ when fully matured.
Although this is a bit ripe the wine is not heavy in any ways. It however doesn’t show much refinement perhaps due to the stage it’s in. Nevertheless this is an exceptional wine with great aging potential.
P.S. There is an animal note and ripe fruit although not as pronouned that reminded me of the 09 Lapierre Morgon. I really think that cellaring the top Beaujolais is the way to go in lieu of the crazy wine prices. (94 pts.)
Posted from CellarTracker
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Way to take one for the team, Kevin. Man, I wish every time that my curiosity called, that I went that big…you’re a shameless baby killer indeed.
It probably is a very good wine but the note doesn’t make it sound at all like an 08 or of for the more important factor… Wait for it… Clos de Beze. whilst I wouldn’t spit on it if offered a glass and would probably enjoy it for what it is, it isn’t what I am looking for in Pinot Noir, let alone Red Burgundy.
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Take of that what you will. Wine is subjective… Can’t wait to see the fanfare of some telling me I am wrong. 
Actually I get '08 CdB out of the note pretty easily…the notes like spicy, animal, earth, and the bright piercing acidity all lead me straight there…
I thus far only drank Rousseau CDB, Duajc CDR and this. I happen to love the 08 both whites and reds and perhaps if one is a burgundy purist, ie transparency and terrroir, would prefer the 08s over 09s for the purity, minerality and bright acidity while not loosing the concentration. In whites there is no comparison for me.
This particular bottle is a bit riper than that of Rousseau but still carries bright acidity and complex layered fruit. I personally don’t think the tasting is that subjective eg, in CT there are three notes which I find similar. The capable tasters will find similar traits the subjective part is whether there would find that to their liking. I am not so sure what you are looking for in a great CDB at this stage but it would be extremely difficult to discuss “typical vintage” characteristic amongst Dujac, Ponsot and Truchot in MSD and Rousseau, Minot, Le Moine, Fourrier, Dugat Py, Dujac and Truchot in GC.
Any Pinot should have bright acidity. In fact nearly all Gevrey’s would have that. Spice, animal, earth in a wine this young, without mention of a delicate perfume, and a red fruited haunting nature to the wine has me worried…
The wine as I said is probably lovely, but…
In terms of getting a vintage character. Yes perhaps, impossible, but 08 is a cool vintage. 09 is a hot vintage. They should show certain characters as such, and the wines will be different accordingly… Ripe and 08 doesn’t really match up!