Women in wine

WINE TALK
61

Isn’t she the subject of a limerick?

There once was a winemaker named Puckett…

62

Virtually every female I know in finance has indicated that the level of sexism in their industry is high. If you’ve ever done even casual reading about the finance culture you don’t really even have to squint to see it.

63

You are incorrigible, Dennis. But I happen to know this one too.

There was once a winemaker named Puckett.
Wine-marketing was certainly something she sucked at.
So she hopped on wine berserkers
And joined the legion of lurkers
'Til the sexism and condescension made her say f* it.

1 Like
64

There you go again, Katrina, not only abrasive but right too! Wouldya give us a break?

65

I studied Finance in college many years ago but when I finished , went into wine after discovering I really didn’t like Finance outside of school…so I don’t keep up with it on purpose , but that’s interesting to know. I have noticed a rising scale of sensitivity and the ease at which people are offended nowadays. There are many women I look up to in the wine biz actually…Christy Cantebury comes to mind as does Essi Avellan , maybe we’ll see them here someday.

66

Heath, give it a rest.

67

Nice one! [rofl.gif]

Actually, when women who know me talk about me, incorrigible is usually followed by scoundrel. [wink.gif]

68

There is zero upside to us publicly pointing out instances of sexism on this board. Doing so will only lead to defensiveness, being told that we are wrong, that we’re too sensitive, or to being called a raging feminist. It’s too bad, because there is a chance, albeit small, that someone might actually hear and understand and improve their behavior just a tiny smidge. But I’ve taken that risk before and ended up flamed and attacked personally and openly and I’d rather not go there again just to prove I’m right. In general terms, though, the condescension towards women is my biggest complaint. Also the stereotyping of women (I’m not talking about wine descriptors or even sexual comments) and specifically women and how they feel about/interact with wine. The crudely sexual jokes, especially when they take the overall tone and atmosphere to one that is highly uncomfortable for women not because they are “sensitive” but because they are members of the category being objectified or degraded, also have their sexist component - it’s disingenuous to say the two (sexual vs sexist) are totally separate things.

As for the workplace, you are deluded if you think sexism doesn’t occur there just because laws were passed. Women are still paid less for doing the same or more/better work than men are. Women are still excluded and shut out every day on every level. Women are still treated differently in nearly every type of interaction, from how we are given feedback by our bosses to insisting we go first into the elevator. If you as a woman feel sick, you are considered weak. If a guy comes in with a hangover in the morning on the trading floor, he’s patted on the back and included in camaraderie-building teasing (provided he doesn’t do it too often). I could go on and on andonandonandon.

1 Like
69

l’ll give you a subtle example of sexist behavior. I was sent to tag along with a younger female colleague to interview and pick up some documents from a client. We were both equally experienced, but the partners wanted someone else there. I didn’t know anything about the assignment, other than the bare basics.
We meet the two male clients and my colleague asks some questions. Each of the clients respond to me, not her. Of course I didn’t notice. We leave, get in the car and my colleague says to me: “can you believe that, they responded to you not me.” It was obvious once pointed out.
It’s also a lot easier to notice when your wife or daughter points it out.

70

I have read feedback written here directly to a Jewish Berserker who frequently compares and contrasts everything to the Holocaust.

No defensive rebuttals were offered by the member who perhaps has modulated this behavior. So there is a chance pointing out egregious examples can lead to improved behavior.

71

@ Tom - That’s really messed up IMO. I guess I’m naive , but I thought that sort of behavior was 20 years ago. My wine business experience here in Texas has been so different from that.

@ Glenn - all I have to say is WOW - I’m actually rendered speechless on that one.

@ Sarah - I’m sorry that has happened to you or around you. Like I said , I must be naive.

This site is a treasure trove of information , and I’ve viewed it and used it as such. So that being said , my exposure is informational and I haven’t seen any of that. It saddens me to think that others might be reluctant to come here due to this sort of thing , and not benefit from the wealth of experience and knowledge here.

72

Not even 20 days ago, much less 20 years ago! Things like this happen to me monthly if not weekly.

73

As others have attuned and I would agree, it’s more likely that you have seen it, but you may not have realized it. I recommend looking up “male privilege” and/or the psychology of such for more enlightenment than I can provide.

Thank you all (particularly the women) for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I’ve found this discussion to be quite beneficial.

74

+1

75

I did just this and learned a new word: cisgender. God how I hate the 21st century.

76

I don’t see this in the wine world. As I mentioned in an earlier post, women DOMINATE the sales fields in the wine industry, and are usually the highest paid employees of their respective firms. I cover about seven states, and this is true in every single one of them. If anything, there is a reverse bias with many of the bigger wholesale companies and importers. Women are just considered more reliable and efficient in this industry.

77

Perhaps in one very small segment, but you cannot generalize for the entire wine industry because it just isn’t true.

78

I struggled with the word “cisgender” until I thought of this: I’m left-handed. A very small percentage of the world is left handed, and most stuff that the world uses isn’t built for me. And we always had a word for the people who aren’t left handed – they’re, it turns out, right-handed. We just never had a word for this gender thing, which is a much bigger part of identity than handedness. Also: there isn’t a stigma about being left handed now, and there are accommodations for me to not feel weird. But my grandfather? To keep him from writing with his left hand, they broke it. So: progress. I kind of understand the word “cisgender” now, even though my analogy isn’t exactly right.

Also – one of the most annoying things about sexism for dudes is that we don’t get to tell women whether it exists. More annoyingly: learning about it means you have to listen. To women. Who are telling you something you don’t know. SUPER ANNOYING. (emoji suggesting sarcasm, irony and sympathy here.) When my then-girlfriend came out with her first book, a memoir about her rape and the trial that followed, I learned from a very close proximity about sexism in the allegedly evolved, liberal, embracing, inclusive publishing industry. For instance: the New York Times refuse to review it because they’d once reviewed a book about rape. On the other hand, how many books did they review about climbing Mount Everest? A lot. Why? Hmm. I wonder. Must be that climbing Mount Everest is a much more common experience. (emoji suggesting cisgendered, privileged white guy confusion here)

79

It’s always interesting to follow the development of this argument about women’s participation on the boards.

Someone asks plaintively “Where are all the women?”

Some (actual, real women) say “We experience sexism on the boards. It’s sometimes a patronizing, if not hostile environment for women. This may discourage some women from participation.”

Then some posters demand proof that said sexism exists on the boards because they don’t see it (ladies, could it all be in your heads??). So what these actual, real women are saying about their actual experience here is discounted as some try and put them on the defensive.

Then some posters demand proof that sexism exists anywhere at all. So then women find themselves having to engage in a surreal argument about whether sexism is still an issue in their work lives. (If having to engage in this kind of argument doesn’t prove that this board is sexist, I don’t know what does.)

And now the argument is made that the wine industry is somehow magically exempt from the sexism women have attested to experiencing on and off the boards.

To Poppy’s statement (gleaned from her actual, real experience working in the wine industry) I"ll add the words of Kathleen Inman:

Winemaker Kathleen Inman described what it is like being a woman on the wine market for an online poll. Inman explained that she would represent her wines at wine tasting events with her husband. Although her husband was not involved in the winemaking process, people would often ask her husband technical questions about the wine, even though he knew next to nothing about the process. They would ignore Kathleen Inman entirely. She says her husband would patiently tell them, “Kathleen does it all; I’m just the trophy husband!” Sexism in the wine industry is described by many women as subtle, not overt; this sexism consists of small gestures, like a restaurant’s waiter handing the wine menu to the man at the table, and discussing the wines only with him.

In the results of that online poll, other subtle forms of sexism came to light. Many women complained about the lack of female representation in management positions at major wineries. Others said they would often hear sexual jokes directed at female wine interns working for wineries. One woman described being constantly tested on her wine knowledge by her male peers, which made her feel as if they didn’t believe her when she said she was a wine connoisseur. Although these are major problems for many women in the wine world, not all women experience these issues.

80

We’re gonna need new pronouns.

He, she and it just ain’t gonna cut it. S’he pronounced with both the ‘s’ and ‘h’ pronounced works well.