Women in wine

[Thomas_Keim]

@Poppy Davis

@Thomas Keim

@Sarah Kirschbaum

As for the workplace, you are deluded if you think sexism doesn’t occur there just because laws were passed. Women are still paid less for doing the same or more/better work than men are.

I don’t see this in the wine world. As I mentioned in an earlier post, women DOMINATE the sales fields in the wine industry, and are usually the highest paid employees of their respective firms. I cover about seven states, and this is true in every single one of them. If anything, there is a reverse bias with many of the bigger wholesale companies and importers. Women are just considered more reliable and efficient in this industry.

Perhaps in one very small segment, but you cannot generalize for the entire wine industry because it just isn’t true.

I believe that two of the three tiers is a pretty large portion of the wine business.

[Mark_C]

Katrina, I think all discriminatory thinking - racism, sexism, religious persecution &c - comes from a fundamental lack of understanding between people.

Those who deny that racism still exists in the US frequently also say that those who claim otherwise are themselves racist; they are making much the same argument you are describing being made here about the experience of women on WB. On a much larger scale, but the thought process and lack of understanding would seem to be the same.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

@M Champney

@Glenn L e v i n e

@M Nguyen

I recommend looking up “male privilege” and/or the psychology of such for more enlightenment than I can provide.

I did just this and learned a new word: cisgender. God how I hate the 21st century.

We’re gonna need new pronouns.

He, she and it just ain’t gonna cut it. S’he pronounced with both the ‘s’ and ‘h’ pronounced works well.

You will know the pod people have taken me if I ever utter S’he.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

I think cisgender is a good word since it implies that what we think of as a normal state needs labeling as much as transgender does.

But, the English prof in me will resist to my dying breath the use of plural pronouns for gender neutral pronouns. I’d be much happier with any neologism that catches on. I also still rail against split infinitives and mourn our loss of the second person plural to the stupid, post Restoration royalist political refusal to use it because of the Puritans. Some changes to language make it richer, some impoverish it.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

@Jonathan Loesberg

I think cisgender is a good word since it implies that what we think of as a normal state needs labeling as much as transgender does.

It is the implication that the significant majority needs modern labeling to somehow recognize the minority that I don’t like.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

@Glenn L e v i n e

@Jonathan Loesberg

I think cisgender is a good word since it implies that what we think of as a normal state needs labeling as much as transgender does.

It is the implication that the significant majority needs modern labeling to somehow recognize the minority that I don’t like.

I think you infer in the wrong direction. A state without an identifying label is the normal state, needing no labeling, like the old joke about the fish asking what’s water? Giving it a label doesn’t recognize the minority but reclassifies the majority as simply an alternative state rather than a normal one. It’s the same reasoning as the one behind the invention of the term heteronormative (or, for that matter, heterosexual, a word that until the 1920s denoted a disease).

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

I guess I’m just not ready to consider historically normal gender identity as an alternative state.

Maybe one day I will?

I still hope transgender folks get all the rights they wish to have.

[Ron_Slye]

@KatrinaBI

It’s always interesting to follow the development of this argument about women’s participation on the boards.

Someone asks plaintively “Where are all the women?”

Some (actual, real women) say “We experience sexism on the boards. It’s sometimes a patronizing, if not hostile environment for women. This may discourage some women from participation.”

Then some posters demand proof that said sexism exists on the boards because they don’t see it (ladies, could it all be in your heads??). So what these actual, real women are saying about their actual experience here is discounted as some try and put them on the defensive.

Then some posters demand proof that sexism exists anywhere at all. So then women find themselves having to engage in a surreal argument about whether sexism is still an issue in their work lives. (If having to engage in this kind of argument doesn’t prove that this board is sexist, I don’t know what does.)

And now the argument is made that the wine industry is somehow magically exempt from the sexism women have attested to experiencing on and off the boards.

To Poppy’s statement (gleaned from her actual, real experience working in the wine industry) I"ll add the words of Kathleen Inman:

Winemaker Kathleen Inman described what it is like being a woman on the wine market for an online poll. Inman explained that she would represent her wines at wine tasting events with her husband. Although her husband was not involved in the winemaking process, people would often ask her husband technical questions about the wine, even though he knew next to nothing about the process. They would ignore Kathleen Inman entirely. She says her husband would patiently tell them, “Kathleen does it all; I’m just the trophy husband!” Sexism in the wine industry is described by many women as subtle, not overt; this sexism consists of small gestures, like a restaurant’s waiter handing the wine menu to the man at the table, and discussing the wines only with him.

In the results of that online poll, other subtle forms of sexism came to light. Many women complained about the lack of female representation in management positions at major wineries. Others said they would often hear sexual jokes directed at female wine interns working for wineries. One woman described being constantly tested on her wine knowledge by her male peers, which made her feel as if they didn’t believe her when she said she was a wine connoisseur. Although these are major problems for many women in the wine world, not all women experience these issues.

Very nicely put. I for one have benefitted enormously from this thread. Hats off to you for having the patience and fortitude to continue engaging here. I hope we will all benefit in some way. I know I have.

[Wes_Barton]

@Heath Richardson

I have noticed a rising scale of sensitivity and the ease at which people are offended nowadays.

Wild assumption there. You’ve noticed more people speaking up. That doesn’t mean people are more sensitive. It means they know they shouldn’t have to put up with it.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

@KatrinaBI

It’s always interesting to follow the development of this argument about women’s participation on the boards.

Someone asks plaintively “Where are all the women?”

Some (actual, real women) say “We experience sexism on the boards. It’s sometimes a patronizing, if not hostile environment for women. This may discourage some women from participation.”

Then some posters demand proof that said sexism exists on the boards because they don’t see it (ladies, could it all be in your heads??). So what these actual, real women are saying about their actual experience here is discounted as some try and put them on the defensive.

Then some posters demand proof that sexism exists anywhere at all. So then women find themselves having to engage in a surreal argument about whether sexism is still an issue in their work lives. (If having to engage in this kind of argument doesn’t prove that this board is sexist, I don’t know what does.)

And now the argument is made that the wine industry is somehow magically exempt from the sexism women have attested to experiencing on and off the boards.

To Poppy’s statement (gleaned from her actual, real experience working in the wine industry) I"ll add the words of Kathleen Inman:

Winemaker Kathleen Inman described what it is like being a woman on the wine market for an online poll. Inman explained that she would represent her wines at wine tasting events with her husband. Although her husband was not involved in the winemaking process, people would often ask her husband technical questions about the wine, even though he knew next to nothing about the process. They would ignore Kathleen Inman entirely. She says her husband would patiently tell them, “Kathleen does it all; I’m just the trophy husband!” Sexism in the wine industry is described by many women as subtle, not overt; this sexism consists of small gestures, like a restaurant’s waiter handing the wine menu to the man at the table, and discussing the wines only with him.

In the results of that online poll, other subtle forms of sexism came to light. Many women complained about the lack of female representation in management positions at major wineries. Others said they would often hear sexual jokes directed at female wine interns working for wineries. One woman described being constantly tested on her wine knowledge by her male peers, which made her feel as if they didn’t believe her when she said she was a wine connoisseur. Although these are major problems for many women in the wine world, not all women experience these issues.

Thank you, Katrina. You’ve responded with patience and reasonable, cogent arguments and examples. It’s clear you care about helping other women in this forum grow their passion and knowledge, and understand that that’s more easily done without some of the social challenges we face here.

[KatrinaBI]

Sarah, thank you. You provide a model for making forthright, constructive arguments and I’ve learned from reading your posts.

Ron, thanks. It helps so much when you, Glen, Wes, Michael, Anthony, tcavallo, Peter, John, Jonathon and Andrew and all the others add their perceptions to a thread like this.

The noisy objectionable few may be just that.

[Ken_Zinns]

I read the first few posts of this thread yesterday morning and haven’t really followed up until now. Wow…it’s mind-boggling to me that there are people who can’t see the stupidly sexist tone of some of the discussions on the board. Even when it’s only implicit, it’s pretty obvious. Much of it makes me uncomfortable and some is flat-out embarrassing.

To toss something out on the board in a joking way once in awhile is one thing, but too many posters go way beyond that.

I know a lot of women who work on the winemaking side of the business, and if I were in their shoes, I certainly would be hesitant to post here given the tone that some discussions take.

There are certainly things people have written that were not intended to be offensive…not everyone gets the subtle or multiple meanings of some words or phrases that others pick up on. But other things range from insensitive to insulting, in a sexist way and otherwise. To state “I doubt seriously anyone intends to offend another here” as one poster has done in this thread…tough for me to believe anyone who reads much on Berserkers could actually feel that way.