Wine advice for a Loire trip

WINE TALK
61

I’m a big Loire fan— it’s amazing the range of styles you can find.

If I’m reading you correct, you prefer the traditional style. Your list generated from the Lobenberg website is great, however, please keep in mind that there are some special names there that might not be your thing. Joly, Menard and certain cuvees from Bretaudeau that can be very different from the rest of your list.

I think that the regions that due to their lack of hype are still fostering talent and new ideas are also worth trying out if it falls inside your style. Not saying you should try a sous voile Menu Pineau, or macerated SB, but just keep in mind there’s new talent, which Lobenbergs list definitely doesn’t represent too well. Look for Visentin or Vinsvivants.

My recomendations based on your preferences would be;

  • Taille aux Loups because they master everything

  • Cailloux du Paradis, and the reason for that is while they don’t make the style of wine you seem to like they’re engaged in growing and using rare local grapes and I think that’s very admirable.

  • Francois Chidaine, because they’re just great and straightforward wines.

  • Collier, because the family is well established, wines are great, but at least their pricing is not delulu.

  • Baudry, because they really know their reds. Sure you could taste a wide range of vintages and to me not many things age like a CF.

There’s so many more great producers. Order some things and see! I’ve hardly tried 75% of what you listed and I’m sure it’s all good.

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62

hi Paul,

I’m not sure a dedicated (Loire) SB thread exists on this board. Sauv. Blanc doesn’t get nearly the attention it deserves on this board — I’m not sure why, but I presume it’s because people here simply don’t love the grape and/or it’s not “cool” to like it. It would be a good thread for you to start for us when you begin tasting through whatever sampling you buy! :slight_smile:

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63

Late to reply here, but I went to the Loire two years ago.

It was very easy to be a first-time tourist there (though it perhaps helped that I knew the wines well and the winemakers could tell I was there specifically for them.)

It’s also probably too large a region to do the whole thing in one trip. It’s a long ride from Nantes to Sancerre.

For chenin, I had lovely visits at Huet + Pinon + Vincent Careme in Vouvray, a quick drop-in tasting at Chidaine’s tasting room in Montlouis, and a visit to Joly in Savennieres.

For cab franc, lovely visits at Baudry + Olga Raffault. Was supposed to visit Joguet too (excellent wines…) but I was sick that day.

There are many other excellent estates it’s also easy to visit, just wasn’t able to fit them all into my trip.

And then there are some producers of course who are perhaps less easy to visit (mostly the new-school Anjou winemakers who might be receiving more fame/attention than they would prefer)

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64

It’s been well over 20 years since our visit, so I’m pretty out of touch, but we did the drive from Paris all the way through the Loire to coast. Maybe I have a higher tolerance for longer drives, and it was somewhat long, but I found it manageable and a very interesting/fun drive. We wound up in a lot of little quirky spots we probably wouldn’t have otherwise.

65

Wrt my little loire sample case, I did some research, using WB (primarily the loire ww and the cf thread) and other sources, and thought of the following composition:

Dry CBs 2 bottles
new anjou v a more concentrated, exotic style (on basis of the recs in the budget CB thread and the one on boudignon):
for the acidity-driven new anjou I was thinking of Chateau de Plaisance: L’Anjou Blanc 2023

exotic, concentrated style, several options: I’m not sure, happy to hear your advice, I can also source other bottles from these producers:
Château Yvonne: Saumur Blanc Yvonne 2022
Huet Vouvray Le Haut-Lieu sec 2022
Baumard Savennieres Clos de Saint Yves 2020

off-dry CB 1 bottle
Huet Vouvray Le Mont demi-sec 2022

sweet CB 1 bottle
Domaine Baumard Quarts de Chaume 2018

Dry SB 2 bottles
Wrt SB, I thought @Phil_T_r_o_t_t_e_r 's comment was very helpful: “I would do more structure and RS vs more freshness and less RS.”
Wrt to these producers, would you say there is a pairing that makes sense in terms of contrast?
Domaine Vacheron: Sancerre Blanc 2023
Alphonse Mellot: La Moussiere Blanc Sancerre Blanc 2023
Vincent Gaudry: Sancerre Blanc Le Tournebride 2022
Claude Riffault: Sancerre Mosaique Calcaire 2022

Domaine Pellé Vignes de Ratier 2023 I already tried an SB by them, and would prefer to go for two other producers.

muscadet 2 bottles
Domaine de Bellevue - Jérôme Bretaudeau Muscadet Théia 2023
Chateau du Coing Muscadet Sevre et Maine Sur Lie 2022

CF
I have a slight preference for these producers: Filliatreau, Yvonne, and Domaine des Roches Neuves. However, in the cf thread those were also mentioned favorably: Clau de Nell, Yvonne, and Pallus.

I read a couple of tns and producer profiles, and it felt to me like a pairing of Pallus with one of the three former ones could make sense because Pallus seems to opt more for power wines (correct me if I’m wrong, just regurgitating what I read).

here’s a list of the wines from those producers that I bookmarked:
Anne Claude Leflaive - Clau de Nell Cabernet Franc 2022
Domaine Filliatreau Chateau Fouquet 2021
Château Yvonne Saumur Champigny Yvonne 2021
Domaine des Roches Neuves Saumur Champigny Franc de Pied 2022
Domaine de Pallus Les Pensées de Pallus 2019

Let me know your thoughts. I cannot go for other producers due to the merchant, but I’m happy to switch producers within the vendor’s offering or choose other vintages/wines by the mentioned producers.

66

I admire your ambition, but you will either need to get more comprehensive or more relaxed. There are too many moving variables (region, vintage, producer) to get a handle on things with so few bottles. For example, I wouldn’t describe any of those three wines as ‘exotic’ or ‘concentrated’, but they are also from three different sub-regions, and also a mix of vintages. after drinking these three bottles you would not know much more than whether you liked these three bottles.

It might be helpful to get wines all from the same vintage, to at least to start to understand how these different villages/sub-regions vary. But obviously you’re constrained by availability and time.

67

This.

Wines to try/chateaus to visit both.

68

Thank you. I think I misphrased this. These are producers that were mentioned in the cb budget thread, when I was asking for a rich, concentrated style with rather exotic flavors. If I understand it correctly the new Anjou producers make more acidity-driven wines. So, I thought it would be interesting to pair this with a richer version of cb. Perhaps this makes more sense? When I start sampling I like to try different producer styles (contrasting ones). Once I’m really getting into a region, I get rid of these preconceptions, but at the beginning I find it rather helpful.

69

Yes, and everyone’s benchmarks will differ, but I’m not sure calling a Huet sec ‘rich’ is going to make much sense in the grand scheme of things. Although vintage variation is crazy.

You might also consider Chidaine, who makes a broader range of wines from crisp to rich, all within Montlouis and Vouvray. And they have a tasting room I believe, which could be instructive.

Because the issue with your list is that you’re comparing both producers and regions, as those different Loire villages vary so much.

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70

What does SB stand for? I took it to mean sauv blanc, but Huet is only Chenin Blanc.

71

Ty for pointing this out, I fixed this. Sb should mean Sauvignon blanc, cb chenin blanc and cf cabernet franc. I thought these were common abbreviations, but let me know in case I am using them incorrectly

72

Thanks for pointing to the importance of terroir and vintage. I don’t have access to Chidaine (at least not for this order).

This might be the question that I wanted to ask:
I read on this board that some group plaisance with other producers whom they label as new Anjou to refer to wines that are driven by acidity and less so by fruit. No idea if this makes sense.

I recently had a cb by Filliatreau, which I experienced as fruit-driven and very aromatic. I liked that a lot. I was thinking of pairing plaisance with a wine like that. Which of the producers mentioned (Baumard, huet, or ?chateau yvonne?) or among the list of cb producers that I can order from (posted above) do you think would provide a strong contrast to plaisance?

73

I don’t think I’ve had Plaisance, but depending on which wine, you would want to compare with Anjou Blanc or Savennieres to maximize analytical leverage. So then potentially Baumard, if those are really your only options.

Filliatreau could be a contrast with Yvonne, both in Saumur. And you could find lots of Vouvray/Montlouis producers to compare.

Remember, Anjou (western) CBs are on schist, whereas Montlouis/Vouvray CBs are on limestone, so there are major broad differences in structure, along with all the other terroir specificities.

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74

Paul? Do you happen to like red wines with age? If you do, Cab Franc from the Loire can be fantastic. I’ve had examples with between 25-40 years of age and they really transform. Not necessarily the easiest to find but to the extent it’s your thing, perhaps worth exploring? Heck even at 8-10 years they start the shift. Very different wines than at 2-3 years of age.

Note: the same can be too for Chenin Blanc as well. I don’t have as much experience but have had examples with 20+ years and they really become something entirely different.

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75

You are right, SB is generally sauv blanc, a couple of the Huets were labelled as SB so I wanted to make sure you knew all were CB

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76

Now, I understand. Sorry for being slow. As far as I understand, you’re saying that it doesn’t make sense to compare a chablis to a cote de beaune chard because of the difference between kimmeridgian and limestone soil.

Personally, for this first sample case I would like to focus on different and contrasting producer styles instead of terroir because I don’t think I can really distinguish between different terroirs without any substantial tasting knowledge of loire wines.

I thought @Phil_T_r_o_t_t_e_r taxonomy was helpful for a first orientation, for instance. Just to find out what I like and what I don’t fancy, which is the purpose of this order.

77

I would never say that you shouldn’t compare across sub-regions. You can compare any two wines by noting their similarities and differences.

But the logic of comparison is that if you want to focus on one dimension (e.g. producer styles), then you need wines that vary on producer style but are similar on all other dimensions (vintage, sweetness level, terroir, etc).

The scattershot method that you propose will be less efficient for understanding producer style, as you won’t know whether you like wine A better than wine B because of producer, or vintage, or terroir, etc.

But, we all know that wine knowledge is a meandering thing, limited by all sorts of factors, and the journey is quite fun. So enjoy!

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78

That too makes a lot of sense, thanks! I guess the real problem is the sample size, which is too small… Two bottles of dry cb obv can’t represent the region. Well, I gotta start somewhere

79

It’s a good start.

Lots of ppl have never had a Loire wine, much less bought a whole case of bottles of Loire wine.

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81

Agree w/ this. When I think exotic/concentrated in Anjou, Bernaudeau is probably the first producer that springs to mind. Leroy as well. Maybe some of Angeli’s wines too depending on the vintage. And maybe Mai et Kenji Hodgson and Pierre Menard.