Wine advice for a Loire trip

WINE TALK
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Hi,

In another thread, many berserkers were so kind to advise me on budget Chenin Blancs from the Loire in a more concentrated style: Chenin blanc budget recs

I might have the opportunity to visit the Loire. I have a few general questions.

Grape varieties
As far as I understand it, the main grape varieties are chenin blanc and sauvignon blanc and cabernet franc. What about Melon de Bourgogne? Is it a ‘serious’ grape variety?

Regions
I understand that one can distinguish between the upper, middle, and lower Loire. From cursory reading I took that one should visit Sancerre/Pouilly-Fumé for SB, Saumur/Chinon for CF, Muscadet for Melon de Bourgogne, Coteaux du Layon, Bonnezeaux, and Quarts de Chaume for off-dry CB. I’m probably missing a lot here.

A couple of general questions:

I’d be very interested in your top-three CF, dry CB, off-dry CB, and SB producers.

Is there something like Jasper Morris’ Inside Burgundy for the Loire?

Is crémant from the Loire worth checking out? How does it compare to Champagne German Sekt?

What about Pinot Noir from the Loire, how does it compare to German/Swiss and Burgundy PN?

Wrt off-dry CB, are there estates that only focus on this (like Egon Müller in the Mosel) or do estates that that make great dry wines also excel in off-dry styles?

How does off-dry CB compare to Riesling and Sauternes/Graves?

What about Rosé from the Loire? I like structured rosé.

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I am by far not a Loire expert, but here a few thoughts. And, while I have visited castles in the Loire, I have not visited wineries there.

My sense is it is a long way from Muscadet to Sancerre. [Google maps says it is almost 400 kilometers from Nantes to Sancerre.] You may need to concentrate you visit in only certain areas.

The best rose I have ever had was a Sancerre Rose from Franscois Cotat. Made from Pinot Noir, it tasted like a richer Sancerre from SB. Most Loire roses however are made from CF. So, you cannot generalize. There are two entirely different types of Roses in the Loire (at least two) made from different grapes and in different regions (again, the Loire is very large).

The wines I have had from Coteaux du Layon and esp. Bonnezeaux and Quarts de Chaume are pretty sweet, not off-dry. Wonderful wines, but definite in the sweet category.

For me, off dry CB is very different from Riesling. Rieslings at a Kabinett or Spatlese level tend to have more acidity and are lighter bodied. Very elegant wines with lots of minerality. Demi-sec Vouvrays tend to be richer and have wonderful exotic flavors. I am more of a Riesling fan, but both are wonderful wines that age really well.

The best sparkling wines I have had from the Loire are Vouvray Pétillant from Huet.

A couple of good links for you.

Loire | France’s Most Exquisite Wine Region

A classification, vintages and impressions of Loire reds - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers Hopefully, Julian and Robert will post here. They are real experts on the region.

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There is a wide variety of wine made from Melon de Bourgogne, from very simple to higher complexity and intensity. I think it is safe to say that on average it is considered a variety of lesser potential but there are also Muscadet that can age for decades. You should check Domaine de la Pepiere and Luneau-Papin for more serious examples.

When it comes to Chenin Blanc I don’t see Vouvray, Montlouis sur Loire, Anjou and Savennieres on your list. Also Bourgueil for Cabernet Franc.

For Cab Franc I like Baudry and Domaine du Bel Air, why not also Jacky Blot. Clos Rougead if you can come across the wines at fair prices. For Chenin Huet (dry, demi-sec and sweeter - Cuvée Constance is epic), La Taille aux Loups (dry with some oak) and Boudignon (dry, super minerally). For Sauvignon Lucien Crochet, the Cotat cousins (two separate producers) and Gerard Boulay.

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I am going there myself this summer, going by bike between Montlouis/Vouvray, Chinon and Saumur. I have planned on stopping by Bernard Baudry and La Taille aux Loups and hopefully some others as well. For me personally, chenin (dry or not so) and cab franc are the most exciting varieties of the region, but there is certainly a lot of serious melon/muscadet being made as well (and sauvignon blanc). I don’t have personal experience with Loire pinot, but from what I have heard, that’s not one of the highlights of the region. Some of the less usual red wines look fun, but I have not tried much (grolleau and cot/malbec etc).

As for resources or books, I have been reading Beverley Blanning’s book “Wines of the Loire Valley”, which is a good guide.

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You should definitely check out Chris Kissack’s website https://www.thewinedoctor.com/

There is a ton of Loire info there and you can get a short term subscription for a very reasonable price.

I have learned a lot from Chris. He is an occasional poster around here as well.

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Thanks so much for these very helpful replies!

@Howard_Cooper : I have used off-dry incorrectly, sorry. What I meant was restsüß, which in German basically means anything that’s not dry. So, I am also interested in CBs that feature residual sugar on an auslese + level.

Also, thanks for flagging the distances involved. I’ll need to figure out a reasonable route once I know which places I want to focus on.

I noted that you enjoyed sparkling wine by Huet and rose from Cotat. I am wondering if they are outliers or represent a broader expertise in the region. For instance, Fürst makes excellent Pinots in Franken (Germany). The area, however, does not really feature other producers that excel with these grape varieties.

@IlkkaL thanks for the names of serious Melon de Bourgogne producers and your CB, CF recommendations.

@JakobS “Wines of the Loire Valley” looks perfect.

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Firstly, I second Joe’s recommendation - Chris Kissack’s site is a mine of information about Bordeaux as well as the Loire.

Secondly, I agree about the distances! Visiting the whole Loire valley would take a very long time, and I don’t know how long you have got.

I would stick to the centre, say between Amboise to the east and Saumur to the west, with your base somewhere in the middle. This would allow you to visit wineries (specializing in both CF reds and chenin whites), but also to visit castles such as Azay-Le-Rideau and Chenonceau, which would no doubt please anyone not interested in wine who is accompanying you.

As to which wineries to visit, again it depends on the time you have available. My wines and places to visit would be, by appellation:

Bourgueil: Blot, Yannick Amirault, Bel Air
Chinon: Baudry, Joguet
Saumur-Champigny: Roches Neuves
Vouvray and Montlouis: Blot again, Huet, Champalou, Chidaine

I’m not really a rosé drinker, so no help there. I like sparkling Loire wines, but I don’t really consider them as good as champagne (each to their own). Likewise, Loire PNs don’t really thrill me and I don’t have enough experience of high-end Sancerres.

I mentioned Chidaine earlier. One good idea would be to visit their shop in Montlouis, run by his wife. They always have bottles open to taste and plenty of good advice - and not just about their own wines - as you can see by checking the list of wines available here:

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Roche aux Moines Savennieres

I recommend as a stop

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For a broader knowledge of the region, listen to Julian, not me.

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Thanks so much everyone. Favorite sb producers in sancerre/pouilly-fume anyone?

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Cotat, Pinard, Vacheron, Daguneau …

And driving a big car into Sancerre is not a good idea: steep, narrow, curvy streets, no parking options.

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Can’t add to the great wine advice, but consider Ambon’s for the Da Vinci museum where he lived for the rest of his life after leaving Milan.

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Thanks again, this is so helpful!

Wrt cb, do producers tend to focus either on off-dry/sweet wine or on dry wine or are there many producers (like huet) who can do both?

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Anjou and specifically the area around Quarts de Chaume and Bonnezeaux are where they will focus on sweet wine. But even there, now people are vinifying dry cuvees.

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Baumard produces dry wines from Savennières and sweeter wines from Quarts de Chaume.

Huet, Foreau, Chidaine, etc., produce, dry (Sec), off-dry (Semi-Sec) and sweeter wines in Vouvray.

I assume other producers make other wines, but most of my Chenin Blanc wines (esp. non-sweet) are from these four.

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Yes, obviously you can get the full range from dry to sticky across multiple regions. But was just highlighting the sub-regions where sweet is (almost) the sole specialty.

But now that you mention it, don’t think I’ve seen much sweet wine from Saumur, which seems to be a dry specialized area. (Although if you want geek curiosity, you can find a Moelleux or two from the area)

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Isn‘t Coteaux du Layon exclusively sweet?

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In my experience, yes, but not as rich or sweet as wines from Bonnezeaux and Quarts de Chaume. Think Spatlese or Auslese compared with BA or TBA.

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Yes, that’s another one. But I wonder if anyone has vinified any of the grapes dry and labelled it more generically, as I know people have done with Quarts de Chaume grapes.

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Thank you, any fav producers for coteaux du layon or bonnezeaux/Quarts-de-Chaume (other than baumard)?