Who does a great value version of Beaucastel?

[Scott_Brunson]

@RS Beck

Seems to me I read somewhere that in the old days, don’t ask me which days those were, it was quite common for Burgundy producers to spoof their red wine with Grenache.

I thought it was with Syrah

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

imo, the '94 Beaucastel is about as “Burgundian” as CdP gets. (although, I do say that w/o ever having had a Rayas)

[Robert.Fleming]

@Brian G r a f s t r o m

imo, the '94 Beaucastel is about as “Burgundian” as CdP gets. (although, I do say that w/o ever having had a Rayas)

Assuming you’re talking about texture and weight, that’s characteristic of the 1994 vintage in Chateauneuf.

[Ken_V]

BTW isn’t Beaucastel a great value already?

[craig_v]

Compared to many yes. The price has crept up but the product probably warrants it. Just thought it would be worth asking if there are cheaper alternatives in the same style.

@Ken V

BTW isn’t Beaucastel a great value already?

[Peter_Baekgaard]

@Robert.Fleming

@Larry P

If the question is, who’s using a higher percentage of Mourvedre or an equal balance Grenache to Mourevedre, I grabbed the Harry Karis book and quickly realized that it would take a long, long time to go through all the pages and pull out this info.

Much quicker using Harry’s website: Producers of CDP

@craig vanderah

… surely there has to be at least a few producers who follow the Beaucastel, less grenache centric, model too. No?

Except for a few special cuvées - like the 100% Syrah “Sola Syrah Régalis” from Domaine Jean Royer; the 100% Mourvèdre “Tintot” from Mas de Boislauzon; the 80% Syrah “Reserve” from Domaine de Nalys; and the 70% Mourvèdre “La Part des Anges” from Domaine Raymond Usseglio - very few Chateauneufs have less than 50% Grenache. Just to illustrate the point, the regular cuvées from Royer, Boislauzon, Nalys, and R. Usseglio clock in at 75%, 70%, 60%, and 80% Grenache.

A few that do have less than 50% Grenache are:

• Clos Saint Pierre “Urbi” (45%)
• Château Maucoil “Privilege” (40%)
• Château la Nerthe “Cuvée Cadettes” (43%)
• Clos Saint-Michel (40%)
• Château de la Gardine “Cuvée Peur Bleu,” “Cuvée des Générations Gaston Philippe,” and “L’Immortelle”- all equal parts Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvèdre

That’s not Harry’s website. The website you are referring to belongs to a Dane, Søren Gudiksen.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Robert.Fleming

@Keith Levenberg

I always had the impression that Beaucastel was still very grenache dominant…

I can only ask, “Compared to what?” Compared to a more traditional CdP cepage that is 60%+ Grenache with little or no Mourvèdre? Compared to Pegau (75% Grenache / 5% Mourvèdre), or Clos du Mont Olivet (80% / 6%), or Pierre Usseglio (70% / 5%), or Charvin (80% / <5%), or la Milliere (60% / 10%), or Paul Autard (70% / 0%)? I think not.

I am surprised to hear the percentage is as low as 30%. The wine tastes like grenache to me and not like mourvedre. Maybe that’s because I don’t like the taste of grenache and am more sensitive to it, the same way anything with even a trace of coffee in it tastes like coffee to me. I’d still imagine that if it’s the taste of mourvedre one likes, one is better off drinking Bandol. If one still needs some grenache in the blend I’m pretty sure La Migoua is the most grenachey of the Tempiers.

[Robert.Fleming]

@Peter Baekgaard

@Robert.Fleming

@Larry P

If the question is, who’s using a higher percentage of Mourvedre or an equal balance Grenache to Mourevedre, I grabbed the Harry Karis book and quickly realized that it would take a long, long time to go through all the pages and pull out this info.

Much quicker using Harry’s website: Producers of CDP

That’s not Harry’s website. The website you are referring to belongs to a Dane, Søren Gudiksen.

Oops.

[Scott_Brunson]

yep–but a great website nonetheless

[Robert.Fleming]

@Keith Levenberg

@Robert.Fleming

@Keith Levenberg

I always had the impression that Beaucastel was still very grenache dominant…

I can only ask, “Compared to what?” Compared to a more traditional CdP cepage that is 60%+ Grenache with little or no Mourvèdre? Compared to Pegau (75% Grenache / 5% Mourvèdre), or Clos du Mont Olivet (80% / 6%), or Pierre Usseglio (70% / 5%), or Charvin (80% / <5%), or la Milliere (60% / 10%), or Paul Autard (70% / 0%)? I think not.

I am surprised to hear the percentage is as low as 30%. The wine tastes like grenache to me and not like mourvedre. Maybe that’s because I don’t like the taste of grenache and am more sensitive to it, the same way anything with even a trace of coffee in it tastes like coffee to me.

Perspective. I am an enthusiastic, unapologetic Grenache slut - and to my palate, Beaucastel is dominated by its Mourvédre.

@Keith Levenberg

I’d still imagine that if it’s the taste of mourvedre one likes, one is better off drinking Bandol. If one still needs some grenache in the blend I’m pretty sure La Migoua is the most grenachey of the Tempiers.

La Miguoa is, indeed , highest in Grenache content - 20%. It’s also lowest in Mourvédre - 50%.
Perspective again: It smells and tastes nothing like Grenache to me.

[Craig_G]

@Craig Gleason

I dug out a 2000 Guigal and a 1994 Beaucastel to drink over the holidays.

I finally got around to opening my 2000 Guigal. It’s a little Bretty, the first Guigal CNP I remember with that characteristic. It is lightening and dropping fruit gradually though it still has a fair amount if power and body. I still can’t tell if it’s on it’s way to a good future or just a gradual decline. In style I find this much more like VT than Beaucastel.

[Pat_Martin]

Domaine de l Hortus Grand Cuvee

“The Hortus Grande Cuvee is 45-45% Grenache and Mourvedre, with 10% Syrah making up the balance. The vines are located, respectively, under the cliffs of Pic Saint-Loup and Hortus, both of which punctuate the landscape with no small measure of drama. Hints of pepper, charcuterie and even dried flowers add further resonance to the dark fruit descriptors.”

[Pat_Martin]

Senechaux: 56% Grenache, 22% Syrah, 20% Mourvèdre, 2% Cinsault. 35% spends 13 months in barrique, 55% spends 13 months in foudre. 10% in concrete.

[Pat_Martin]

Chapoutier Barde Rac is the most Burgundian CDP I’ve had, the '99 in particular.

And I think it is almost all VV Grenache…

[Robert.Fleming]

Yesterday I tasted the 2011 Collioure “Puig Ambeille” from Domaine La Tour Vielle, a Kermit Lynch import. It’s 60% Mourvèdre, 40% Grenache, according to the website.

The aromatic and flavor profile reminded me of Beaucastel. And it retails for <$30. Very nice wine at a very nice price.

[Arv_R]

@Robert.Fleming

Back to the original question: Lirac ‘La Reine des Bois’ from Dom. de la Mordorée might be worth a try. One-third each Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvèdre, at about $25.

Although I’ve had this producer’s CNDP a few times, I’ve never tried their Lirac. I put away a gray market French tax stamped example some years ago, and have been really enjoying it over the last few windy, rainy nights. The 2015 Dom. de la Modoree ‘Reine des Bois’ [Lirac] does have a furry, sauvage, Mourvedre driven character, which is why I grafted this TN onto this old - but still good - thread. The nose leads off with licorice, dog, and fennel that is indeed reminiscent of the Beaucastel cepage. I love the balance between fruit and garrigue Provencal type of savory flavors here, even with that hint of barn. Among the three different glasses, I liked it the most out a Nachtmann Vivendi Burgundy bowl. I’d give this fleshy, low acid 14.5% abv Rhone an A- on my scorecard. Cork is conventional, and sediment is typical for it’s age.

[Gerhard_P]

Dom.de la Mordoree is very different in style from Beaucastel, the CdP 75-80% Grenache and only 10% Mv, the Lirac RdB more Mv but still quite modern with oak influences.
If you want to taste a 100% Mv CdP:
Domaine la Barroche 2018 “Mystere” ( black label with a ?, no other designation) …
but very rare!

[Stan_Y]

@Craig_G

w.r.t. Burgundian, in 1998 we walked into a (not famous) cellar in CNP and they served a 1980 that was light in color, high in aroma, and beautifully smooth…I think all great old wines aspire to become “Burgundian” because we associate lighter color and body, fine aromatics, and silky texture with Burgundy.

I had a '78 Beaucastel from questionable storage several years ago like this, light color and very tertiary, still pretty cool. I don’t think it’s so unusual down the far end of the aging curve for a bottle to lose its sense of place.

[DaVid_B2]

Mas de Boilauzon’s Tintot is predominantly very old vine Mourvedre and worth a go as well.

[M_Meer]

Anyone ever do a CDP/Bandol side-by-side tasting?