How so… 18 months oak staves dried this propensity vrs the 36 months air dried not so much … So the Brett has to exist in the new oak at some point and get processed after the infection somehow …I hope nobody thinks I am arguing with the Mel at all … I agree about the oak, knowing oak gets infected with Brett it makes sense … What we don’t know is why 18 months does this and 36 months does not … That part is up for speculation …
So I am confused … You are saying I am being disrespectful to you and fighting with Mel ? ![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
If you want smoked ham, salami, and yes, even a bit of bacon, then go buy a bottle of 2011 Quivet Syrah Las Madres Hulda Block, asap…
One of my associates worked with Gangloff and Cuilleron. I will see what they use for oak. Guigal has changed around a lot. Not sure what he does now. If he has changed grape sources, that will confuse things too.
Around 1992 Saintsbury complained that their Francois bbls were not ‘toasty’ enough. So we did an experiment. Three levels of toasting and three levels of air drying…18, 24 and 30 month. What we saw was that the longer the air drying the more subtle the toast came across, regardless of medium, med plus or heavy toast. The younger wood came across as a bit of ginger meets BBQ/smoked ham or bacon, no matter what the toast. Somebody once said that the longer the air drying period, the less you get and the more you pay. Subtlety has its price.
Now why is this?? I have boatloads of research on this and if anybody is really interested, e mail me at
mel@knoxbarrels.com. Eventually I will get back to you with a bunch of oak studies.
I looked up syrah in the book that Jancis and others wrote…no mention of bacon as a keynote of syrah but there was a comment about burnt rubber, a sulfide note. This gets back to what I said earlier, about syrah tending to be reductive in bbl. Perhaps if you add a touch of brett and very toasty oak to a reductive grape. Maybe the answer is that the bacon note is the result of a series of factors.
That’s right. And in 94 or 95, Guigal was bottling the Ch. d’Ampuis, midway between the B&B and the LaLas. The B&B really seemed to go downhill after that, presumably in part because the better lots went into the d’Ampuis.
And yet the oak treatment hasn’t really changed from when your favored wines were made to the recent vintages that you don’t like. That doesn’t make nearly as much sense as the idea that you had different preferences when you tasted these wines young and didn’t think wines with the same level of oak impact tasted as oaky as you do now.
Well, we know it can come from brett. There’s proof out there that it can. So, when I taste the exact same bacon flavor that I know can come from brett byproducts (I’ve tasted it in wines spiked with those compounds) in the Northern Rhone, a region famed for the widespread influence of brett, also documented, it seems pretty simple to say that’s probably where it comes from. Then you have cleaner, more modern wines from the same places that don’t taste like bacon, which further supports the idea. The existence of Syrah harvested at the same levels of ripeness as these bacon-tasting examples from the N. Rhone which doesn’t taste like bacon seems to further support the idea that it’s not the ripeness that is the key factor. Of course, there’s no proof without testing every single wine that tastes like that, but we’ve got some really good supporting evidence for the idea that it’s brett, and none for the idea that it’s just Syrah.
Hi Mel,
Yep, I know. The point I was trying to make (and perhaps didn’t do a good job) is that at very low sensory levels one can mistake skunk aroma for coffee. I have many times been driving and caught an initial whiff of road-kill skunk, but thought at first it smelled like coffee. My theory is that at very low levels, we might interpret certain combinations of brett by-products as smokey/bacony notes.
We do ship there. Just saying… ![[whistle.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/87d24eb81ec6dc01d84f3d6c19fa9a357e90218e.gif "whistle"){kind=small}
Alan,
One of the problems here is that one taster’s coffee is another’s sweaty saddle.
That s why they call it Taster’s Choice.
Inspired by the below book …
In all fairness this is truth as I see it … Lets not say anyone is lazy… Lol…
Lots of people ask , so how did the Brett get into the oak or anywhere in a cellar… Bees are everywhere in and outside of cellars… well thank them … Think insects and more specifically bees, yes, even our ever threatened friends the bees…
We also know Brett processes different things in the grape must that yeast sac. do not… This gives us great nuances…
Brett IS NOT BAD … Is has a very bad reputation that is is deadly and this misconception has spread over the wine world …
Many wineries that produced wonderful nuanced wines find today changing winemaking methods, the use of velcorin , RO machines, spinners, NEW OAK … Produce wonderful wines, just like everyone else… WITHOUT BRETT …The use of spontaneous fermentations up to 3% alc and then to inoculate with commercial or house yeast is to control the beast Brett is one way …
I just touched on control … Control of Brett is the key to a happy life filled with complex, multidimensional aromatic wines… Just as I like my bacon and meats in my wines , this does not mean I like a flaw… That’s silly … It’s a nuance, not a flaw… As famous winemakers have lamented… " to control Brett is to understand wine" profound concept, but those of us who have experienced the greatness of Brett in wines understand this concept…
So before I get everyone buggered up , as I seem to do at times… I wanted to clarify … Who knew what would send me back down the rabbit hole… And ya know what this time down this rabbit hole the updated facts are changing perceptions… And that is the quest … The veritas of wine …
Bought the book late last night ebook and finished 37% before I passed out … I love this book …
So the book that gatherers the facts …
…
The above thread was inspired by this book …of you like the dry verbiage, facts then get this book, if not skip it…
postmodern winemaking by clark smith…
Quote:
Postmodern Winemaking: Rethinking the Modern Science of an Ancient Craft [Hardcover]
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I don’t think that new oak is the only problem here. Over-ripeness leading to low acidity and greater sensitivity to new oak would be one of the major explanations for me.
Remember that a even a Mouline, in the '80s 90’s, was rarely above 13% of alcohol. In '09 a majority of the wines from Cote Rotie had to apply for derogation to AOC rules because of alcohol over 14.5%.
Eric - Thanks for that information.
I had understood that higher alcohol levels dissolved more oak compounds. Do low acids also contribute to that?
From burgundy experience, yes. High acid or low pH or both will allow a wine to handle much more oak than the opposite. If you want oak to be transparent of course. No scientific explanation that I know though.
The cote rotie guigal wines had a bbq/bacon quality when young back in the 70s and 80s
I just talked to a winemaker buddy about this yesterday. His comment was that he associated a bacon quality with underage oak.
The cote rotie guigal wines had a bbq/bacon quality when young back in the 70s and 80s
I just talked to a winemaker buddy about this yesterday. His comment was that he associated a bacon quality with underage oak.
Interesting, Mel. I always assumed the bacon/BBQ/smoky thing was tied to the charring of the oak. Do you suppose it’s the charring of underaged oak specifically? (I guess they probably aren’t seasoning the wood they use to smoke bacon, are they?)
It wouldn’t surprise me if people in the Rhone didn’t spring for the most expensive, seasoned oak barrels in the old days since the wines didn’t command high prices before the late 80s or 90s and new oak wasn’t part of the regimen other than at Guigal. The underaged oak theory would be consistent with that.
That was precisely my point : when these wines were not soaked into new oak and not over ripe, they showed a lot of bacon. Sorry for my bad english
There were/are a lot of totally unoaked syrah from gneiss or blond granit that show more or less of bacon in the northern rhone even in languedoc. Oak has nothing to do with it, imo.
Ian D is an enabler!!
Thanks for chiming in Eric–I’m still holding on to one of those 2000 Hermitage. The most recent bottle was quite good.
I have visited guigal many times.
It is my impression he not only bought a fair amount of new barrels, he left wine in them 3+ years.
Now the wine came around nicely, but there were bbq notes in it at the beginning.
I have not seen him for ten years so cannot comment on recent events there.
Could someo.e name a no oak syrah with bacon notes?
Pardon. The typing.
M
Been all over the web looking and the notes are fruity blackberry … No mention of any bacon in unoaked or naked Syrah in any of the limited ones posted …