people, please…the bacon flavor is part of the varietal character of Syrah, and over-ripeness eliminates this.
I wonder if you could add oak chips and bacon bits to the fermenter. I bet Randall has already tried this.
Do you have a definitive reference for this? Know what compound causes “bacon” notes, and if that compound is native to Syrah? I’ve certainly had my share of Cali syrahs that couldn’t be considered overripe, and I can’t say they all (or frankly any) exhibited bacon. More likely to be green peppercorn in my experience.
You know he has … ![[stirthepothal.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/f/f40faec63ca1018898a40805efbf9f0066a3d205.gif "[stirthepothal.gif]"){kind=small}
Alan,
Another good point …
Cheers !!!
Mel,
Something I’ve been curious about and asked in the Alesia 30 month thread is how does EBA effect wine. Specifically in this conversation, Syrah?
If the compounds that david list make up the bacon, meat aromas do they age out with time in the barrel or do they become more intense?
Really curious about this as I have had LaLa’s in the past and with age they seem to exhibit many of these meaty, smokey, bacon attributes, but have not had them young to really get a feel of the difference.
From tasting the young LaLa’s that I’ve had from’01-'04, I can’t imagine them ever overcoming the dominant oak and ever showing the characteristics of what made them the legends of old…sad really…
Jeff,
Those Guigal Brune et Blonde vintages of the 80s and 1990 were made using the production of growers who subsequently started to make and estate bottle their own Cote-Rotie, rather than sell to negotiants, which I believe is another big factor in the difference.
Charles
I wish I could answer J Bray’s question authoritatively but I cannot.
In the 70s and 80s I visited Guigal a lot, but not so much now. Wine and wineries are so dynamic.
With syrah you have a grape variety that tends to reduce easily in the barrel, plus there are various sorts of guiacols (pardon my spelling it is late) from brett and the barrel. And to paraphrase Henry Kissinger, there’s oak and then there’ s oak.
I have always wondered if the role of viognier in Cote Rotie is to diminish the reductivity.
Sometimes oakiness integrates into a wine with time and sometimes it doesn’t. If the problem is brett and it blooms in the bottle, then you have a long wait or you should look for somebody who thinks it’s terroir.
In the 60s what goes into the Lala wines used to go into the regular bottling.
The ETS website (a wine lab in st helena) has an interesting chart of oak flavors.
Jeff I want to thank you for bitching about the lack of this nuance that sent me back to school to relearn what I had forgotten and supplement this with new science and this 2007 study … Thanks… !!!
Solved … As for the source of bacon in wine in general provided by science… coming from oak, sure another point of early on infection called Brett … So from an oak perspective certain drying conditions facilitate the introduction of Brett … Now that we know this , producers, brokers -importers of barrels now have another tool to dial in on the barrels , casks that have the propensity to deliver this nuance … It’s a great sales tool… (Mell maybe you can utilize this new information and implement it as a guide for your consumers) ?
Used with permission by author for education as stated in the introduction …
Trent E. Johnson
A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy
University of Adelaide Faculty of Sciences
School of Agriculture, Food and Wine Wine Science and Business Group
Source click on me
The nuance of bacon fat, as Jeff originally posted missing, changed his love of wine lacking the Brett nuance…
Just as in how a ice wine need a crazy amount of Volatile acid to lift aroma, some would call a flaw… Some wines that utilize Brett like Syrah to deliver the savory organoleptic profile of meats , specifically bacon fat …
Buried around page 210 they find that consumers like fruits far better than meats in wine … The minority like the ‘bacon fat’ , so it’s recommended for mass markets to avoid this nuance… That said to approach hedonistic bliss this nuance seemed to be needed…
However, the absence of the third identified dimension which described an “earthy, savoury, dusty and meaty” (ESDM) character was the primary driver of their hedonic and quality ratings
The MDS solution provided 2 dimensions that are often associated with Australian Shiraz – “blackberry, plum, pepper and spice” (BPPS) and “herbal, vanilla, cedar and berry jam” (HVCBJ) characters. Wines perceived as having moderate levels of both these dimensions’ characteristics, were favourably received by the experts. > However, the absence of the third identified dimension which described an “earthy, savoury, dusty and meaty” (ESDM) character was the primary driver of their hedonic and quality ratings. > This ESDM dimension contained both positive descriptors like meaty and earthy (the latter being an ambiguous term but in this study the experts were referring to more developed fruit character (Iland and Gago, 2002)) and negative descriptors related to the (perceived) presence of Brettanomyces character, Some of the more expensive wines were perceived as having that ESDM character and this may have contributed to their lower than expected hedonic and quality scores. Of the seven wines identified by the experts as having this character, four had 4-EG/4-EP values within the range that would be considered responsible for a “Brettanomyces” fault (Chatonnet 1992). It would therefore appear that the experts were recognising the presence of this fault in some of the wines and subsequently marked down their quality and liking scores for those wines. The presence of some ESDM characters and the absence of primary fruit characters was also a detriment to higher quality and liking scores. The PLS undertaken in respect of both the liking and quality scores confirmed that the BPPS dimension was a positive factor in both scores and that the ESDM dimension was the major negative factor in both. It seemed that the experts’ technical quality evaluation of the wines contributed to their hedonic liking scores,
148
This thread had been very educational and I want to everyone who has commented, no matter what the comment was… It’s great banter and mentality challenging for this old crusty dusty winemaker who loves to know … WHY ???
Your additional comments are much appreciated …
Cheers!!!
Good point, Alan. I’ve also had quite a few CA Syrahs that are pretty light on the ripeness scale, and while I sometimes get something a bit meaty from them, I don’t remember ever noticing that distinct bacon note that some Northern Rhones have. I think it’s safe to say, especially with what others have said about it, that bacon probably comes from brett. I guess we can add it to the long list of yeast or bacteria related aromas wrongly attributed to varietal character or terroir.
Excessive new oak should be a crime. And I agree with those that say it may change with time (becoming sweet caramel), but it usually doesn’t go away.
I had a 1997 Penfolds Grange last night that was an oak nightmare. The bouquet was exclusively new oak (and American oak at that), and while there was some beautiful fruit in the glass, it was on the run from a wood assault. I guess given the pedigree of this wine it would be fun to taste this again in 10 years or more (it did seem young) to see where all that wood goes.
But definitely no bacon, not even any peppercorn.
Jeff, Guigal’s approach is its own beast, and wasn’t really “traditional” in the broad sense of being widespread. The high Parker points encouraged others to emulate.
Many of the “old school” producers referenced here won’t be terribly similar.
So let’s see…bacon coming from brett requires no proof, but bacon being a syrah characteristic requires proof.
Right! Got it. 
One more thing: heavily toasted barrels provide fuel for brett, so one can see how the two are linked.
I have been selling barrels for over thirty years. I have been in the wine biz for over forty. I have helped perform two experiments on air-drying and toasting. I am pretty sure about the link btwn bacon/smoked meat characteristics in wine and barrels made with staves under 18 months air dry.
To do an experiment that would ‘prove’ my thesis and be published would cost over $100,000.
In the meantime, trust me on this!
I had trouble with the link to the Australian research. Will try again at the end of next week when I am back from a trip.
David,
It’s the simplest conclusion that science offers us…if you don’t like the answer then I emplore you to do your own research and report hither, than mock…mocking is not going to get us any new info …that PhD thesis is a good start,no ?
I ask this respectfully…
Mel,
That link takes time … it pulls up over 300 pages of great information…I do trust your experience for sure …
Cheers !!!
I see that Mr Science, Clark Smith, is making an appearance here.Maybe he will want to comment on this issue.
Mel, I’m interested in the differences between longer and shorter drying times. I seem to notice two types of oak “presence”: one is what we encounter more often (though I don’t have a good descriptor - what you will smell on Gangloff Cote Roties, Gaillard, LaLa’s, etc.). The other is a more raw/green note (but not stems or underripeness). I’ve always assumed that green oak note comes from younger, less aged or toasted wood. What would you say?
No you don’t. That said, the barrel maker seems to have a different opinion. Maybe you would like him to get an advanced degree in Syrah.