Post '98 vintages don’t seem to have the same complexity…which recent wines have the old style “Bacon Fat” aromas that made me fall in love with Northern Rhone’s…seems like oak has killed a classic style? Will there ever be wines made like the '90 La La’s again?
What have you been drinking? There are plenty of traditionally made Northern Rhones.
I do not think the use of oak has changed at Guigal. FWIW, having just tasted a bottle of 98 Guigal La Mouline and loved it.
Jeff,
You sir are correct in your assessment …
How so ??? Well this problem was started by one man and he then lost control of the outcome and he lamented …
The late great Emile Peynaud told the story ::: I will paraphrase … When I started to consult the estates had old stinky, bacteria laden casks… I suggested they try new casks and purge the old … I also told them to clean the cellar … They resisted and then one started and another and when the wines came out so much brighter and alive without the horse and animal smells … The estates ordered more and more… It was then that I wished I told them to burn the oak and pour concrete or anything but oak …
He was dismayed as he knew the flavors would be masked by the obfuscation, bastardization of new oak … It’s sad …oak in moderation , fine … Blasting style of oak soup is not pure wine, it’s tainted by oak that is killing the delicate nuances of the grape… It’s a nasty thing that is going on …
cheers !!!
What are you drinking? I drink aged wines with 15+ years on them…the young wines ('99+) that I’m now trying don’t exhibit the bacon fat and classic aromatics of the pre-95 wines…I had a '01 Guigal La Turque recently and was disgusted by the over use of oak…that wine will NEVER BE AS GOOD as the wine made in '90 or '91 despite the vintage being just as highly acclaimed. There are numerous other examples of young N. Rhone’s from Roasting, Chapoutier, Jaboulet, and St. Cosme that I’ve tried recently that have been disappointing…so, simple Q…where’s the bacon…give me specific’s so I can buy wines that fill the need…
Jeff thanks for chiming in…what about the new vintages. I KNOW you know what I’m talking about with the older Guigal’s. I feel there was a significant change with the '99 vintage. I saw your recent note on the '99 d’Ampuis…nice note but no mention of beefs blood or bacon…
Tomorrow, I console myself with an '85 and '88 Chave…
So you need to buy the same wines people are fetishizing lately: Allemand, Gonon etc.
The La Las have been 100% new oak forever. They have not changed. You have. And 2001 was never as acclaimed as 1990, nor should it have been. It is a really good, but not a great year.
One of the reasons I switched to Cornas and St Joseph. People like Gonon, Thierry Allemand etc are making classic Northern Rhone wines. Difficult to find now in Cote Rotie IMHO. I am sure it is possible. Jamet is still making some nice stuff however.
Yes, Jamet. Some others as we’ll, but I shall remain silent lest the spirit of Salil the Rhone hoarder smite me in my dreams.
01 is not in the same park for quality as 90 or 91. Those years are about as good as it gets for Cote Rotie. 91 is for me of legendary quality with many wines still going strong today. I wish I had more.
Beef blood is not something I often find. I get it from time to time, but it’s not something that resonates with my sense memory. Bacon fat I find often in Cote Rotie, but not always. But that loses the point of tasting for me. When I taste a wine, one fragrance does not make or break an experience. It is the totality of the wine I am interested in, not its parts.
I believe the oak program has not changed at Guigal for decades. In the 60’s, Guigal did not use much new oak, and perhaps for most of the 70’s, I have no idea. But they have used extended aging for the their top wines for decades. Ampuis is aged in 100% new oak for about 38 months and Mouline, Turque and Landonne are aged in 100% new oak for 40-42 months. The oak fades in time.
So…don’t want to share huh? Well, I got thirsty and poured a nice glass of '90 Chapoutier La Sizeranne from Mag…thanks to my Coravin…this is what I’m talk’n about…
Jamet…used to be able to score…those days are gone in West Michigan…
Jeff, really? So what vintages post '01 would you recommend that can hold a candle to the '90 or '91’s?
From the wines you are listing (all gloss) you wouldn’t like the stuff I am not disclosing anyway
A lot of the bacon, or smoked meat, quality, that comes through in certain reds is due to the oak barrels which are air dried less than 18 months and are toasted a lot. Syrah seems to enhance this quality. I remember pouring Guigal wines for my wine classes back in the 80s that smelled like BBQ. Of course, Top Guigal wines are in bbl almost four years so it takes a while for the wines to integrate after bottling.
Jeff, we’ve tasted together. So for you, if you find 2001 at the same level as 1991, then that is what it is for you. On this, we do not agree.
IMO, 1998 is close in quality to 1990, but 1991 is better than both. I like 1995, but it’s not as good as 90/91. 1999 for sure! I find 1999 compelling for Cote Rotie. It’s such a great style and most producers made outstanding wine that is really showing well today. 2003 is still young, but it’s probably that good. 2009, I am still waiting to taste a bottle. The same for 2010. I am attending a dinner this year where we will taste all three 2009 La La’s! It’s a few months away and I am already salivating over it…
Not really. It might change, but never disappears, or leaves the wine as it would have been without being overwhelmed by oak. Which is one of the reasons some Rhone wines, and most Bordeaux, aren’t nearly as interesting as they once were - at least to me.
That’s an interesting theory. My own theory is a bit different: I believe the bacon note is low level brett. The primary compounds that make the aroma of smoke are chemically very close to two of the main brett compounds. I think at very low levels we interpret them (perhaps in the right combination) as a smoky note. Similar to how a low level skunk aroma can appear as a coffee note.
So, I think that as many cellars have been cleaned up in the Rhone, a lot of the potential source for the smokey bacon notes has gone away.
No, that’s not what I said…I’ve been disappointed by the '01’s, despite their high regard by critics. '99’s are so so, but still disappointing for the small wines…for instance…the '83, '85, '89, and '90 Guigal Brune et Blonde were great values and fit the flavor profile that I’m looking for…I bought quite a bit of the '99. While nice, it isn’t near the wine of those prior vintages.
Wow…that’s a thought…I think you’re on to something. I always liked a little funk in my wine…as my dear friend Jack would say…bring on the Brazilian butt crack ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Mel,
I only get bacon fat from two grapes … Syrah, and petite sirah… I get meats from other reds today a real nice treat to taste … Brovia Garblet Sue 2008 …96/7 pts … Nice action with meats , not bacon…
So in your experience do you or anyone have experience with bacon fat other than what I mentioned… ?..
And a better question is, can you get this with zero oak ?