So Bordeaux and Burgundies from the 50s and 60s and older pop up at auction all the time. Maybe you’ll see some old Chapoutier, Chave, or Guigal as well, but do really, really old southern Rhone wines still exist? Were they so bad that no one bothered to keep them? Or do people who ask questions like this get disappeared?
I’m not sure that they really live that long…I could be wrong here but they older Rhones (60’s & 70’s) I’ve had have all been drinkable…but past prime.
I think that’s right.
For my 2 cents, and I’ll probably get flamed for this, back then Bordeaux was weedy and tannic and you needed to let them age for a while before they were palatable. Burgundy to some extent as well.
CdP was a backwater that produced what was by comparison fruity wine for immediate consumption. A lot was bretty and likely to spoil anyway. Parker came along only in the 1980s and championed the region. As he became better-known, he was able to direct more attention to the area.
Into the 90s, you could pick up CdPs for far less than you would pay for Bordeaux, even run of the mill Bordeaux. If you paid like $40, that was quite a bit. Wines from elsewhere were already hitting over $100 regularly.
Throw a few 100 points on a few wines, get people to start making single-vineyard selections or single-variety cuvees and the prices go higher. It wasn’t all that long ago that some started topping $100.
Once the wines became expensive, people started thinking that they should age because after all, aren’t you supposed to age expensive wine? So people started aging them. You can find them from the 1990s these days, but before that they were cheaper and consequently I don’t think they were regularly aged.
I have had some older ones but as a general rule, what exactly would you keep them for? So that the tannins can settle down? Garnacha just doesn’t have a lot of tannins, at least as it’s grown in the region. The pleasure of the wine is mostly about the fruit. So why keep them?
I accidentally kept some from the 1990s, particularly 1998 because I liked them at the time, but frankly none of them have actually improved and it was kind of a mistake to keep them. Some, like Rayas, can really hold on, but there isn’t the kind of development you get from Barbaresco, Rioja, Bordeaux or elsewhere.
It’s kind of like aging Zin. Yeah, you can do it, but in exchange for what? Matter of fact, I think Zin can actually go through a more profound evolution than most Garnacha-based wines. I’m not talking about Geyserville and Ridge either, because I think most of those are just fine on release. I’m talking about random Zins that I’ve accidentally kept for over 20 years that were really interesting, perhaps because I expected nothing at all.
All this is probably all an over-simplification, but many people in CdP acknowledge Parker’s influence openly and if you read older books and/or reviews, hardly anyone was talking about keeping CdPs for their children. And for me, that’s probably correct. Even more so today.
I’ve had quite a few older ones. Not too many age well for that long. Beaucastel and Rayas from the 70s still show ok.
Great post, Greg.
Dad and I had some nice ones from 78 and the early 80s. They showed well young and aged beautifully. They were bargains at the time…Pegau, Rayas, Beaucastel, Vieux Telegraph were probably our favorites. They varied as to how much Grenache and how much Mouvedre. Now it is rare i find a CdP that doesn’t drink well young except for the heavy Mouvedre dominated Cuvees I am too old for those so i go with Marcoux and a few others. Yes, they are a bit more modern but I am not sure anyone can say what the CdP profile is overall. Way too may producers… Many chasing big $ with multiple Cuvees. I actually think the best wines from the region these days are the whites. They drink well young and are great with a variety of foods. Pegau, VT, Beaucastel, lots of others… Wonderful wines! Cheers, Bob
This has just bifurcated into two questions: aging at all and aging for 30+ years. Those, who like Greg, don’t prefer their CdPs at 12-20 years old to when they were new I think just don’t like the wine with proper age on them. Grenache does have tannin and does have secondary and tertiary flavors that come out more after 10 years or so in the bottle.
As to 50 or 60 year old CdP, I confess to having insufficient information. I have had many very good ones at around 25-30 that did reward the aging. A 1988 Vieux Telegraphe I had this past spring was wonderful. But the only really old one I have ever had–thanks to Cole Kendall–was a 1928 from a name that no longer exists that was fabulous a couple of years ago and indeed tasted younger than some CdPs from the same dinner from the early 90s (which were no slouches). I have no idea if this happens regularly or was an anomaly. But 20-30 year old CdPs being wonderful is no anomaly at all.
Disagree!
Older Rhones, Northern as well as CdP, even Vacqueyras can age similar well as Bx or Bg (the latter probably best).
The problem is that many Rhones from the 40ies to 70ies are negociant bottling (beause not many estates were self-bottling in those days) - and here the quality and agability is mixed, although some are very fine.
I had quite a good number of aged Rhones that showed extremely well, from 1947 to present … especially vintages like 1949, 1955, 1959, 1962/64/66, 1970 … 1978 can be marvallous - but domaine-bottlings are hard to find (not only Beaucastel or Clos des Papes, also Vieux Telegraph, Mont-Redon, Nalys, Beauregard … and negoc. like Chapoutier, Jaboulet, Delas, Vidal-Fleury …)
Old Rayas and Guigal Mouline cost a fortune … but lesser known produers are often inexpensive - and worth every cent (if bottles in good condition and better vintages …)
I am with Gerhard here.
I have been drinking my 1990 Chateauneufs quite happily some time. Around two dozen bottles from six different producers, and apart from a corked Janasse, not a single bottle has been over the hill. I have had a couple of 1978s recently, and they have also held up remarkably well. Probably would not hold them much longer, but the best have taken on a wonderful complexity. The most recent Vieux Telegraph andBeacstel were both lovely, the slight edge going to Beaucastel, but I have had better bottles of the VT.
I don’t think one needs to wait twenty years with Grenache based wines, the way one often does with traditionally made Bordeaux, Grand Cru Burgundy, or Piedmont wines. But how long will they develop? I don’t really know. My 1998 VT’s are just hitting their prime, I think, and the last 1989 Beaucastel I had was beautiful. I’ve only had a couple from the 1970s, so I can’t say on that score.
I can´t say about the really “modern” CdPs (like Clos St.Jean)*, but rather traditionally crafted ones like Pegau, Rayas, Bonneau, Marcoux … can and will easily develope for 3-4 decades … most 1978s are still looking strong as are the best 1981s … and most 1990s have a lot of potential at age 23 1/2 …
Sure, if one prefers his CdP with primary fruit - rarely a problem, but the same applies to most other wines, except that most CdP are also accessable in the first 10 years (only they will taste rather fruity and rarely as complex as a 25+ year old wine …
Nevertheless - if ones drinks up all his CdP during the 1st 10-12 years he will never know how a really well matured CdP is like - (or take the risk and money in purchasing at auction …)
- PS: IMHO even the moderately modern CdP will age fine - only the ones vinified like Beaujolais will die earlier …
Sorry, but I drank them all in high school. Late 50s CdP were what started me on the road to perdition. I don’t remember exactly how I discovered them, but I think it had something to do with the raised glass logos on the bottles. The drinking age was 18 in New York, I was tall and studying French in high school in the late 1960s, and I could buy some of the best for about $2.50 a bottle. We used to buy them and drink them with friends from a store that is still there and is occasionally mentioned on this BB. I’m not sure whether our favorite was the 1957 or the 1959, but in 1968 and 1969, they were fantastic. I remember bringing a bottle to party I was invited to in Ann Arbor my Freshman year in 1969. I was invited to the house of an upper classman and I showed up with bottle in hand. I knocked. Someone opened the door, took the bottle, said, “Oh, this looks nice” and exhaled a cloud of sweet smelling smoke. Maybe that was the last bottle of 50s era CdP, since we finished it that night.
This is an interesting thread. I’ve seen this topic debated before on CdPs. The issue is whether the wines survive or demonstrate a transformation to improvement with time. I don’t doubt they can survive. I don’t go back far enough with them to know whether they improve. I know many old timers who say they just don’t. I don’t know. I recently had a 2000 Vieux Donjon that was round and soft, but I didn’t have it young to compare. It was great food wine though, but not really old by any measure.
I really like Greg T’s post. I think he explains the why of it as to the original post. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Back when I lived in San Diego a friend opened a bottle that his uncle had stored from release. A 1959 clos st jean, a bottle before they had a separate dues ex machina bottling. An incredible bottle of wine. I had no clue cdp could age like that.
You should simply taste NOW things like 81 Pegau, 78 Clos des Papes, 71 Vieux Telegraph or 64 Mont-Redon … ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
That would be an educational idea, Gerhard. I only go back as far as 1998 with CdPs now, but I’m always looking to learn more (about wine and life in general). I do know they offer a lot of pleasure young, though I tend to give them a few years to settle in. Right now I’m mostly drinking my 2000-2004s.
I agree with most of that, but I think there is another major factor: It wasn’t a region that was highly regarded in the trade, particularly the British trade, which dominated the collectible part of the wine world until the 80s. You don’t see a lot of old Northern Rhones or Barolo for the same reason. Serious wine people didn’t buy it and lay it away.
To put this in context, until stores like Chambers St. started bringing in prime-condition old Barolo from Europe, it was almost impossible to find wines from before the 90s because no one took it seriously enough to store it well and all the old stuff floating around was cooked. I’d guess there was a similar issue with CdP. Stores and consumers didn’t bother to take care of it.
Also, while some CdP is produced in reasonably large quantities (and certainly more than PC and GC Burgundy), the quantities are much smaller than most Bordeaux chateaux, so there isn’t as much left around.
All probably true John. Bordeaux and Britain was the wine business for a long time.
those, who like Greg, don’t prefer their CdPs at 12-20 years old to when they were new I think just don’t like the wine with proper age on them.
Jonathan - to put it into context, the vast majority of what I drink is Spanish wine, most with some age. Drinking Riojas from the 1980s these days. If I had many from the 1970s I’d prefer them. The question for me is not about preferring wine with or without age, it’s about whether the age actually results in improvement. And in most cases, I find that the pleasure offered at the younger stages exceeds the pleasure offered with many years on. That’s exactly the opposite of something like a gran reserva Rioja, where the pleasure offered with many years is just not found anywhere else. Ditto Barbaresco and Barolo. Those wine are generally far better with age than they were in their youth.
Grenache does have some tannins, but relative to other grapes, it’s a very low-tannin grape with thin skins, offering low acidity and few tannins. That’s why they add things like Mourvedre - it has thicker skins and more tannins to add structure because of those skins, it also resists late-season rains so the producer still gets a crop. Don’t get me wrong - I love Grenache from almost anywhere. It produces such friendly, likeable wines. Had a Clarendon Hills this Wednesday and it was just great. But sometimes you want something with old mature flavors and aromas just because that’s what you’re in the mood for.
Gerhard mentioned something that’s very important that I neglected. The fact that many people back then were selling to negociants is a very important point. That was the case in many parts of Europe until quite recently. Many people sold to co-ops or negociants and then one day decided to try selling their own wine. That is another reason for the price changes actually. If you have pretty decent vineyards and now you and your family want to take advantage of that fact, you suddenly need to do a lot of work you didn’t have to do before. You not only want to sell for a higher price than you were getting, you actually need to do so.
Also, the grape composition changed in the 1970s and 1980s. Plantings of Syrah increased in the 1970s as it replaced Cinsault. Then in the 1980s, Monastrell began to be added because while it’s more work than either of the other two grapes, it blends nicely with Grenache, whereas Syrah can become over-ripe and can also dominate the blend rather than play nicely.
I would think that the increase in use those grapes were probably both part of and causes of the changes in CdP. That coincided with the increasing desire of producers to bottle their own wines and also with the attention of Parker, which should not be underestimated.
I don’t have that much experience with REALLY old CdP’s, but the very first wine I ever bought was a CdP. The run of vintages from 1988-1990 was great, and if you have a Beaucastel or Vieux Telegraphe from those vintages that has been well stored, you’re probably in for a treat. I still have a few left.
Having said that, when I first got into collecting wine, there weren’t that many people I knew he cellared CdP with the idea of aging it for 10-15+ years. As commented above, the “cellar-worthy” wines were generally considered to be Bordeaux and a few other types of wine. So the people I knew who bought CdP typically drank them on the “young” side.
Bruce
I’ll join the chorus that believes the best wines can age - I had an 75+ year old Clos de l’Orotoire des Papes that was one of the most amazing bottles of my life on a night where a friend was opening the “old and questionable” (for viability not authenticity) and the bouquet and flavors were enough to bring a hush over out first glasses.
As to why one almost never sees them, there were many fewer estate bottles back in the day and CdP was not regarded as being in the same class as Bordeaux, Burgundy or Hermitage.