Where are the old CdPs

[A_K_a_I_l]

Recently purchased and drank a 1994 Beaucastel which was splendid.

[M_Kelly]

69 Clos l’Oratoire remains one of the best bottles I have ever had. Opened with a large, informal group and one of the burg nuts grabbed me and said “dude, what is this? and why are we opening this in this crowd!?”
I have some '78 Mont Redon on the launchpad - once wife is ex-baby, as well as 78 Donjon and a 61 Fortia, can post notes if anyone is interested. Conversely, if in STL and want to try one, let me know.

[jhowe]

I drank this a couple of years ago from magnum. Pretty good stuff.

[ky1em1ttskus]

@M Kelly

69 Clos l’Oratoire remains one of the best bottles I have ever had. Opened with a large, informal group and one of the burg nuts grabbed me and said “dude, what is this? and why are we opening this in this crowd!?”
I have some '78 Mont Redon on the launchpad - once wife is ex-baby, as well as 78 Donjon and a 61 Fortia, can post notes if anyone is interested. Conversely, if in STL and want to try one, let me know.

Please post your notes.

[Eric_Ifune]

I also have had many wonderful wines from the 60’s, 50’s, and older. I’ve no doubt that CdP can age wonderfully. I do believe that they weren’t considered as prestigious as Bordeaux and Burgundy and so weren’t held onto.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

@GregT

All probably true John. Bordeaux and Britain was the wine business for a long time.

those, who like Greg, don’t prefer their CdPs at 12-20 years old to when they were new I think just don’t like the wine with proper age on them.

Jonathan - to put it into context, the vast majority of what I drink is Spanish wine, most with some age. Drinking Riojas from the 1980s these days. If I had many from the 1970s I’d prefer them. The question for me is not about preferring wine with or without age, it’s about whether the age actually results in improvement. And in most cases, I find that the pleasure offered at the younger stages exceeds the pleasure offered with many years on. That’s exactly the opposite of something like a gran reserva Rioja, where the pleasure offered with many years is just not found anywhere else. Ditto Barbaresco and Barolo. Those wine are generally far better with age than they were in their youth.

Grenache does have some tannins, but relative to other grapes, it’s a very low-tannin grape with thin skins, offering low acidity and few tannins. That’s why they add things like Mourvedre - it has thicker skins and more tannins to add structure because of those skins, it also resists late-season rains so the producer still gets a crop. Don’t get me wrong - I love Grenache from almost anywhere. It produces such friendly, likeable wines. Had a Clarendon Hills this Wednesday and it was just great. But sometimes you want something with old mature flavors and aromas just because that’s what you’re in the mood for.

Gerhard mentioned something that’s very important that I neglected. The fact that many people back then were selling to negociants is a very important point. That was the case in many parts of Europe until quite recently. Many people sold to co-ops or negociants and then one day decided to try selling their own wine. That is another reason for the price changes actually. If you have pretty decent vineyards and now you and your family want to take advantage of that fact, you suddenly need to do a lot of work you didn’t have to do before. You not only want to sell for a higher price than you were getting, you actually need to do so.

Also, the grape composition changed in the 1970s and 1980s. Plantings of Syrah increased in the 1970s as it replaced Cinsault. Then in the 1980s, Monastrell began to be added because while it’s more work than either of the other two grapes, it blends nicely with Grenache, whereas Syrah can become over-ripe and can also dominate the blend rather than play nicely.

I would think that the increase in use those grapes were probably both part of and causes of the changes in CdP. That coincided with the increasing desire of producers to bottle their own wines and also with the attention of Parker, which should not be underestimated.

There’s a facts on the ground element here. You are reading numbers of people attest to great experience with old CdPs. My experience, as I said, is mostly with them up to age 20 or so. All of us are telling you they are different and better with age. You may not agree but, given the testimony, that just means you like them better young than old, not that, for most people, they don’t improve with age.

If you think CdP needs mourvedre to age, just try a 1990 Rayas (the limit of my experience–Gerhard can no doubt talk about much older ones). For that matter, Pegau and Charvin both have only 5% or under of mourvedre, hardly enough to justify your theory.

[John_Morris]

You’re showing your Spanish orientation there, Greg:

@GregT

Then in the 1980s, Monastrell began to be added because while it’s more work than either of the other two grapes, it blends nicely with Grenache, whereas Syrah can become over-ripe and can also dominate the blend rather than play nicely.

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

My wine group will be organising a Clos des Papes vertical soon. Will know how they age.

[Gerhard_P]

@Sanjay Nandurkar

My wine group will be organising a Clos des Papes vertical soon. Will know how they age.

Should be a memorable experience, if the bottles are in good condition. Even smaller vintages can be fine.
How far back?

@GregT

Gerhard mentioned something that’s very important that I neglected. The fact that many people back then were selling to negociants is a very important point. That was the case in many parts of Europe until quite recently. Many people sold to co-ops or negociants and then one day decided to try selling their own wine.

In addition: before the 80ies not only many producers didn´t bottle themselves at all - so the negociants got the best fruit for their cuvées - but the largest (or best-paying) negociants often could select the best foudres from the harvest … that´s why old negociant bottlings are usually far better than nowadays …
Today a negociant has to take what he gets, which in many cases is the worst patch …

On the other hand: IF a producer decided to bottle a certain (often small) part of the harvest himself, he logically takes the best barrel for it, which he called CUVEE RESERVEE … (this is e.g. the origin of this designation at Rayas, Pegau etc.) - the rest was sold off.

So the old domaine bottlings are often the equivalent of the “Special cuvées” or “Vieilles Vignes” of today … and many negociant bottlings still can be marvallous (sure not all).

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

Gerhard,
Not sure as some else is the lead organiser. But I suspect approx 20 years.

[john_stimson]

Vieux telegraph le Crau vertical back to 1989 two days ago. Away from my notes but The sweet spot was 95, 98,99,2000 although 1990 was unfortunately corked.

[Faryan_Amir-Ghassemi]

Nothing to see here folks. Charvin, Rayas, Pegau, Beaucastel, Telegraphe and Mont Redon can’t age. Might as well dump your aged bottles on commerce corner.

[Craig_G]

@john stimson

Vieux telegraph le Crau vertical back to 1989 two days ago. Away from my notes but The sweet spot was 95, 98,99,2000 although 1990 was unfortunately corked.

On the other hand, if you repeat that tasting in five or ten years I bet the same wines will be the best, maybe with a few younger ones sneaking up. I don’t think VT’s 89 and 90 were as strong as they could have been. The 95 has always been better and now it’s really hitting it’s stride.

[john_stimson]

Can’t comment on the 1990 as it was corked (or the 2004 which was corked.) The 89 tasted interesting but a little old and perhaps sl roasted. The 1999 and the 1995 were killer wines. Penetrating black fruits, with subtle herbs, but the pepper and potent herbs (elements that I don’t particularly like) have faded to the background. Per the tasting organizer, these middle age wines are available at about the same price as release.

[Craig_G]

@john stimson

Per the tasting organizer, these middle age wines are available at about the same price as release.

They sold for around $30-35 on release, so that seems unlikely. If you find 1995 VT with good provenance for $35 you should buy a bigger truck to back up.

[john_stimson]

should have said current release.

[GregT]

If you think CdP needs mourvedre to age, just try a 1990 Rayas

I have. And I’ve had older Rayas. It’s a good wine and one of the few exceptions. But even that is usually more remarkable for having held onto the fruit than for having evolved into something completely different. In any event, I have a few bottles from the 1990s that I’m just holding onto for no particular reason, so we’ll see.

[Jeremy_Holmes]

Had a 1962 Chateau des Fines Roches last night that was terrific. A really fresh and delicious bottle. On the nose there are some mushroom and earth development characters along with dark fruits. It is sweet and creamy in the mouth with ripe fruits that have plenty of liquorice flavour. It is quite earthy on the finish and still has bright acidity.

I really like older Chateauneuf and you can still buy older ones at decent prices. Over the past two years I have drunk 1973 and 1978 Lucien Barrot, 1978 Beaucastel, 1976 Mont-Redon, 1978 Ancien Domaine des Pontifes, 1943 and 1947 Pere Anselme, 1938 Bessac, 1955 Du Peploux a Courthezon and 1973 Domaine de la Vieille Julienne. Nearly every bottle was ethereal and engaging and satisfied this Burg lover immensely. I’m not so keen on younger vintages of Chateauneuf since RMP completely f*cked the region, encouraging the vignerons to make alcoholic soup!

Cheers
Jeremy

[paul_hanna]

Had quite a few old CNDP’s now.

Well cellared, they pretty much live as long as anything…

1957 Châteauneuf-du-Pape (Mont-Redon):
Big, dark fruit, powerful and in good condition, but really just a bit one dimensional. Totally different fruit [profile, so no Bordeaux here. A touch of gamey earth, so CNDP or old Aussie. Turned out it was CNDP, and the oldest I have had (so far, only to be broken soon).Pretty good if just a bit nondescript.
90pts.

1949 Guigal Châteauneuf-du-Pape:
Fantastic! So bright, fresh and crisp, with lovely cleand and detailed red and black fruit, with just a hint of earthy spice. Wow, this was great indeed. ’49 CNDP? Wow, this was nearly as good as the ’78 Rayas a few months ago, and was definitely the oldest Rhone I have had. Looked much younger, this bottle was in simply amazing condition, and was superb in every respect. The top wine of this bracket unanimously. Absolutely top world class wine, and one of my wines of the year in an amazing year of fantastic wines…
97pts.


That '49 Guigal was a real highlight in a night of stunning old wines…

T/N: Superb Old Reds - '30's, '40's, '50's BDX, CNDP & Aussies, 1864...

[Sanjay_Nandurkar]

Jeremy/Anyone,
Currently, which producers do you think still follow traditional route without RMP influence?

Sanjay