Reread. I was discussing exclusively CA Cabs until you requested a list of big wines not ripe, oaky and alcoholic. I doubt very much I insulted a whole slew of people by saying the emperor has no clothes. If so, a board where people express opinions about wine is not the right place for them. Finally, I don’t need a lecture or waring from you about this board, and knock off the “dude” garbage.
As quite a long-time lurker, I resonate with this statement wholeheartedly. Pretty sure the reason there are so few mentions of CA wines on this board is because if anyone dares to, the old-worlders jump down their throats. Wine from anywhere else is okay, just not CA (especially Napa).
Back to the shadows…
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There are quite a few brokers that have been buying US wines and bringing them into Europe and Asia. I deal with a few small guys, but I’ve heard there are a couple of big players moving decent quantities. Nothing to the size of Bordeaux or Burgundy, but a step in a necessary direction to get California renewed interest.
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Here’s the original post. Where did he ask for tasting notes? I know that is where the conversations descended into, but you thought it was more important to invoke your opinions about wines that you categorically don’t enjoy. Not sure how that was helpful.
"Prices and costs continue to rise, some more than others. New projects left and right asking for $200+. Looks like the secondary market has softened to 60c on the dollar for many wines. Wineries emailing the list to ‘verify authenticity’ of auction lots. Blue chip wines look to be down anywhere from 20-50% from prior value (though still above release).
Is this a bubble on the verge of popping, or has this been status quo for awhile that I am just now seeing?
I’m not a flipper and only buy from a few lists. I want to support good people making good wines. But if these are signs of a pending market adjustment, I’m concerned things will get bumpy for lots of folks."
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A lot of Napa Haters out there - for one thing the high end wines have become so expensive particularly (at least in my opinion) in comparison to Bordeaux which for me is an alternative. Granted the wines are not the same but the grapes are and for someone who likes CS based or Merlot based wines Bordeaux seems like a better choice. Figeac is cheaper than Insignia, Lafite is cheaper than Harlan.
I absolutely love Napa Cabs - in the best examples it is the purity of the fruit and ripeness of the tannin that are uniquely special and reflect the terroir. I have tried a lot of wines and a lot of regions - many people migrate to Burgundy on their wine journey. I actually feel sorry for those people - Harlan and Lafite are a lot more affordable than Leroy and DRC - of course if you just love Merlot based wines maybe I should feel worst for you. I admit I have migrated more to Napa. But I get how easy it is to make fun of people who think Caymus is the best wine in the world! Napa offers a lot of great wines - it is the pricing that seems a bit out of control to me.
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Interesting point about Merlot.
When I was in Bordeaux in 2022, there was some talk about replanting to Cabernet Franc due to global warming. It’ll be interesting to see if there are more of those conversations this year.
I’m curious as to what the future of Merlot is in Napa too.
You bring up really interesting points about the pricing of Bordeaux vs. California. I think it certainly is adding to the problem that Rohit pointed out about slumping Napa sales.
Why?? Please educate me.
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Your generalizations about Napa Cabernet are just dead wrong. There are plenty of them that have nuance and complexity, even at the higher end of the ripeness scale. The fact that you don’t know about them, or just choose to ignore their existence, undercuts every single word you have written.
Maybe go have a bottle of Corison Cabernet Sauvignon and reconsider your words.
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You’re ITB? What do you do?
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Petrus and Le Pin
You also have to take volume into account where Harlan makes 1,000 cases and Lafite makes 25,000 so supply and demand are very different and correlate to price asked.
Harlan is over 3000 cases now.
I think Lafite has backed down to around 15,000 cases, but your argument is real and valid.
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In the housing market we call them doomers. They’ve been predicting a crash for a decade yet here we are at all time highs in housing. To Martin I say what I say to the doomers and have for the last decade.
Its Coming!!!
Huh?
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i could see them making a little more than what they’re claiming with international accounted for.
they wouldn’t be the first winery to do so, but maybe one the first on their business model/price point.
I suspect you’re right. Also, it’s been a slow deal environment, with fewer mergers and IPOs. So there are a lot of people on Wall Street whose bonuses will be much smaller for 2023.
Though you have to bear in mind that the market for Harlan is almost exclusively in the US, while the market for first growth Bordeaux is global. (I saw Ian’s posts about foreign buyers, but I would guess they represent a tiny fraction of the buyers.)
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And there was that proposal (was it adopted?) to allow non-Bordeaux varietals such as termpranillo.
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So few mentions? There are scores of threads about release dates, new wineries from established winemakers and offerings received.
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Perhaps you might say that you have a different opinion, instead of saying that another’s perception of wine is “dead wrong.” It’s no coincidence that the two Napa Cabs that I have in my warehouse, Frog’s Leap and Corsion, are two of the three Napa Cabs identified in this thread (as well as I can recall) as alternatives to the homogeneous style I have described.
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