The taillepieds from heitz is only ok, not nearly as good as angerville or other producers.
Ramonet does make a pernand vergelesses (and a montheile) that are both very good.
It’s generally because people look down on red wines from chassagne, many people don’t even know they make red wines there.
I wasn’t objecting to your thread title. It inspired me!
More about the evolution of the thread into debates about Chassange vs Savigny vs Pernand vs Beaune for value. At a certain point, all those villages tend to offer value vs Vosne and which one is the ‘best’ for value is going to be about specific wines that individual palates prefer.
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Oh I think they all offer value. I personally feel that world class (as good as most made in the CdN) are made in pommard, volnay, and chassagne) and not so much in beaune, PV and savigny, although those other villages offer excellent burgundies that are amazing values and worth pursuing. Of the 3 I mentioned, I think red chassagne is the least well known and most undervalued. That’s my opinion but others may feel otherwise.
Beaune clos de mouches and enfant Jesus can be world class wines, although I’ve had well stored aged versions and don’t personally find them as compelling as the Ramonet cdb at a significantly higher price point, but there’s no doubting the quality, they just need ALOT of time.
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Btw @Mark_E did a blind last year with the Ramonet montheile against bertheau and hudelot village chambolle AC and the Ramonet was better.
Agree completely on Chandon des Briailles, specifically Ile de Vergelesses, top of class for Pernand. Not easy to find and not inexpensive.
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The best savigny is still relatively rustic to me
I wouldn’t agree with that. The soils of Savigny are generally quite light, and the terroirs quite sunny. Sites such as Lavières, Narbantons, Guettes and La Dominode produce good levels of ripeness and fine tannins that lend them broad drinking windows. Some of the deeper, clay-rich soils at the communal level like Grands Liards make more structured wines, sure, but that isn’t the calling card of the appellation.
Of course, winemaking an inherent potential are different things.
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Thierry’s wines are quite delicately extracted these days, so not sure you should extrapolate from then to now.
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For me, the best reds in Chassagne today are from the Bachelet brothers at Domaine J-C Bachelet, Thierry Pillot at Domaine Paul Pillot, and the Cardeuse bottling, now divided between the two Moreau brothers’ separate domaines. They all farm exceptionally and are working with top terroirs. Morey-Coffinet and F & L Pillot are two addresses to watch. At the communal level, Olivier Lamy’s Goujonne gets better and better, though it’s not the same level of terroir as CSJ and Boudriotte.
Among old wines, Pierre Ramonet was the reference. I drank his 1961 Clos Saint-Jean a few months ago, and the wine remained a comparative infant, with a dark, brooding character that made sense of Lavalle’s Clos Vougeot analogy. The best non-Ramonet old red Chassagne I drank was a magnum of Fernand Morey’s 1964 Caillerets Rouge, I think one of the last parcels of Caillerets planted in red, that dominated a bunch of magnums of grand appellations (and some Bordeaux 1st growths) over lunch in 2023.
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Couple quick questions:
When did Ramonet switch over from Pierre to JC, and when was CdB separated between them and bachelet-Ramonet?
Are the Bachelets you’re referring to different? And I’m assuming they’re also related to denis bachelet?
I think certain producers aren’t as rustic, like recent Bruno Clair, but I just don’t think at least for me these wines hit the highs of chassagne rouge, maybe super aged versions would; I do have quite a few of the Clair wines from 17 and 19 so welll see down the line.
I’m a neophyte in this company w/r/t savigny, but last week I opened a 2005 S Bize 1er Cru Aux Guettes that was pure silk. Rustic would be the last word I would use to describe it. Delicious stuff and a recent bargain to boot.
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Pierre was the grandfather, André the son, and Jean-Claude and Noël the grandsons. Pierre died in 1994; André in 2011; and Noël separated from the family Domaine after the 2013 vintage (his sons just produced their first vintage under their/his label in 2023). So there is some overlap. My understanding is that during his lifetime, Pierre remained very implicated in day to day activities of the domaine.
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The Bachelet brothers who today run Domaine Jean-Claude Bachelet are not related to Denis Bachelet.
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Thanks for the info! I’ll have to seek out the bachelet wines. I’ve had some of the bachelet-Ramonet CdB and didn’t find it as good as the Ramonet versions, but certainly excited about new producers in chassagne rouge.
William, would the 2019 Pillot Clos St Jean rouge be a good entry into the producer’s wines? I’ve never had one.
We may be talking at crossed purposes… A terroir can tend to produce rustic wines: e.g. deep clay soils, poor sun exposure, windy => tannins that are chunky and rarely fully ripe. Winemaking can be rustic: e.g. oxidative, bretty, coarse extraction, etc. So you can make a rustic e.g. Amoureuses, even if that’s an inherently very elegant terroir; and conversely, you can make elegant e.g. Chassagne rouge from the bottom of the slope, you just have to work pretty hard. In this sense, Savigny is not rustic; and that is not its historic reputation.
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Yes!
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Perhaps we are using the word differently. I’ve always viewed savigny as less elegant than, for example, volnay, but not as structured as pommard in the cdb.
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Btw it seems like JC Bachelet chassagne rouge isn’t widely available in the US. Are they going to be making Clos de la Boudriotte from that domaine? I saw that bachelet-Ramonet made a 2022 version, and I see JC bachelet boudriotte rouge from earlier vintages as well, very confusing.
Domaines Bachelet-Ramonet and Jean-Claude Bachelet are definitely not to be conflated!
The Bachelet bros are great farmers and surely one of the unsung top estates of the Côte de Beaune. Lots of hand work, tressage in some sites, cultivation using “chénillard” (small, caterpillar tracked engines that go between the rows and weigh only 800kg); long press cycles for whites; long élevage in increasingly well chosen oak… and, great terroirs!
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