This post is probably going to piss off long term collectors, but oh well.
For everyone complaining about rising prices in red burgundy, especially in the Côte de nuits, there is one region with world class wines that are mostly reasonably priced, if not inexpensive. With climate change, some of the concerns in terms of concentration, weight, and ripeness of fruit are no longer issues.
Chassagne Montrachet used to be a red region before many vines were torn out for white wines.
Lavalle rated CM clos st Jean as highly as clos de vougeot, ruchottes, and other Côte de nuits grand crus.
IMO the best wine from this appellation is Ramonet’s Clos de la Boudriotte, which is usually around $100/btl now. The price has been pretty stable since the 2015 vintage, at least in my experience, while wines of similar quality have increased in price from $100 to $200 or more (such as Lignier Morey St Denis 1er VV, Jean Marc Millot Suchots, Clerget Clos de Versueil)
Other outstanding wines include Ramonet’s Clos St Jean, Bernard Moreau Morgeot 1er La Cardeuse, which is darker fruited, Jean Marc and Paul Pillot’s Clos st Jean (which are a bit oakier) and others.
I’ll post some individual tasting notes later in the thread.
That’s entirely your choice. IMO, the best chassagne rouge 1er is qualitatively as good as high quality CdN 1er and (some) grand cru. I don’t think most of the lower priced Beaune wines are nearly as good.
I cellar and am a big fan of Ramonet’s various reds, they bring me more joy than anything else in that price range. But I don’t think of comparing it with really good Clos Vougeot, which seems like a much more serious and “classic” burg requiring serious age. I am not expecting the Ramonets to last as long or hit the same high, hoping I’m around to see in 20 years .
You should. I just had 99 and 2000 clos de la boudriotte this year and they are tremendous. I prefer them to any clos vougeot I’ve had with the exception of producers like MG and CLB. I preferred 2000 clos de la boudriotte to 2000 Hudelot Noellat Clos Vougeot.
I have a few other random bottles of Hudelot-Noellat, M-G, and Forey Clos Vougeot, but the one I mainly cellar is de la Tour VV, back to 2008, so nothing old enough to show yet. But the '17 and '19 on release I’ve liked quite a bit more than Ramonet CSJ (several 2010 to 2019, although these are completely different, almost apples to oranges). But have had only a few bottles of the Boudriottes along the way so not a fair comparison, although the ones I’ve had seemed put together similarly to the CSJ.
Cannot agree more how good the Ramonet reds are! And the “off” vintages so far have been my favorites for drinking, even if the bigger ones like '19 show such potential.
I think the Chassagne rouges do much better with age, although they are also good while young. I think it depends on what you’re valuing in the wines. They certainly don’t have as much fruit and potentially as much structure as some old vine clos vougeot but that is also in part because of the oak regimen. Btw clos de la boudriotte and la boudriotte are different bottlings and the cdlb are significantly better than the “la boudriotte” wines (I know it’s confusing). Personally I much prefer the Ramonet cdb to clos de la tour, but that’s personal opinion.
I think comparing the JM and Paul pilot CSJ is more apples/apples given the oak treatment.
Yeah the Ramonet reds seem quite a bit different stylistically than these, more tender and way more complex and red-fruited. Really good Clos Vougeot though have seemed to me to have more in common with high-end Vosne grand crus (spice, structure, darker, serious), just a different beast altogether. Looking forward to seeing what time brings.
Michael, I came upon your original posts on Chassagne Rouge at exactly the moment when I had just bought my first Ramonet Clos de la Boudriotte Rouge on a whim. Now it’s my longest vertical (only 2017-2021, but still) - I buy three bottles each year, open one, and cellar the other two.
I love it and think it is one of the most beautiful wines made in Burgundy; sappy red fruit, impossibly floral, silky and beautiful. I hope to age mine 10-15 years at least; you mentioned having 99 & 2000 this year - do you think the 20 year mark is the sweet spot?
Recently, I’ve tried Hubert Lamy’s 2018 C-R La Goujonne VV (very nice, elegant, maybe a bit more concentrated but could be vintage) and bought 2021 Lamy-Pillot C-R 1er Cru Morgeot Rouge which I’m looking forward to.
I agree they remind me of Volnay, and specifically Lafarge who is not coincidentally one of my favourite producers.
I haven’t any older than 99, but the 99s felt like they could go longer. The 2000 was drinking absolutely at prime, but didn’t feel like it was fading. I think the wines can go 25 easy, but at 20 would likely be amazing. I wish I could get more 13s.
I suspect this is gonna be a fun thread. I have always found with wine never to make such definitive pronouncements, as there is always something to make you look foolish.
We seem to be looking at good Burgundy for under $100, and I think there’s plenty to choose from. I can’t say I’ve ever drunk a Chassagne that I have found profound, although I have not tasted the Ramonet. It is hard to think that it is that much greater than anything from the appellation, but then it is priced well over $100.
I wonder if it can compete with the Volnays and Pommards of Glantenay, incredible values at less than $100, particularly their Volnays and Pommards. I have found their Volnays, Cheney and Santenots to be profound; complex wines, and certainly possess that “vestige of value in Burgundy “ that we are all looking for.
One of the highlights of my wine life was a 59 cm rouge village only a few years ago. Absolutely going strong. My generous host then opened various ramonet cm rouges from the early 90s. Again, absolutely no rush whatsoever on those.
I’ve bought about a case of 2021 ramonet clos de la boudriotte in the last 24 hours for less than $100/bottle, so yes it’s less than $100.
I’ve had the glantenay wines, which are fine, but imo not in the same league. They’ve been among the large amount of value wines that I’ve sold in the last year or two.
Volnay and other Côte de Beaune reds can certainly be a source of value, with wonderful producers like Armand Heitz, Thomas Bouley, and Angerville, Lafarge and Nicolas Rossignol, however, with the exception of the heitz wines, none are quite as good a value. Bouchard, Drouhin, and Jadot also offer some value in the Côte de Beaune, especially the Clos de Mouches from Drouhin, but personally I find the Chassagne rouges more compelling.
Not all the Chassagne rouge are amazing wines, but they’re certainly much less expensive than Côte de nuits wines of similar quality. There are a lot of other wines we could discuss that are also good, at lower price points, like Jean Michel fagot, or even some wines from Caroline Morey. As I said in the other thread, Ramonet’s Chassagne rouge and moreau’s Chassagne rouges are both good wines at a low price point.
I am surprised that you have short changed Glantenay, as it is for me a pretty serious wine, and an excellent example of the terroirs of great Volnay.
Ditto a fairly obscure Pommard vineyard Les Saussilles, which shows an entirely different character. This is incredibly good winemaking, and with fifteen years of age, they are capable of aging beautifully, and I suspect have a couple of good decades ahead of them.
As I said, I have not tried the Ramonet, so intend to try one. I am open to the idea that Chassagne is capable of showing an interesting terroir, but to date, I I have never had a single example that was anything more than pleasant, and certainly nothing as interesting and compelling as those Glantenays.
Glantenay was fine, nothing special. Probably a good value for the price. I lump them in with producers like Felettig, Herestzyn-Massini, and some others that Greg from Envoyer is always trying to hype up.
Far below Angerville, Lafarge, N. Rossignol, Bouley, Heitz, and some other producers for me. There are definitely some new exciting producers from the CdB like Buffet, Rougeot, Billard, that are worth one’s attention.
Given that you like older VCC, Ramonet CDB from vintages like 10 and 13 would likely be of interest. 13 is for some reason especially compelling, and I liked it more than the 12. 10 is insanely good.
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