¿stupid? question from an old pro re: tannic Dolcetto and dilatory service

[James_Wright]

how could one differentiate between normal sedimentation in an unfiltered Dolcetto di Dogliani, as opposed to solids that have precipitated out of the wine because of temperature variation during shipping, storage, or otherwise?

what’s normal, guys/ladies?

[Kris_Patten]

@James Wright

how could one differentiate between normal sedimentation in an unfiltered Dolcetto di Dogliani, as opposed to solids that have precipitated out of the wine because of temperature variation during shipping, storage, or otherwise?

what’s normal, guys/ladies?

The only things that would precipitate out due to temperature would be tartrates, nothing would due to heat or mis-storage. Otherwise sediment is just due to lack of filtering before bottling.

[James_Wright]

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

[Peter_Kleban]

@James Wright

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

[Kris_Patten]

@Peter Kleban

@James Wright

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

Tartrates are tartaric acid which crystalizes and falls out of solution if the wine is not cold stabilized properly. Cold temperatures cause them to fall out of solution. They can get darker with age.

[Peter_Kleban]

@Kris Patten

@Peter Kleban

@James Wright

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

Tartrates are tartaric acid which crystalizes and falls out of solution if the wine is not cold stabilized properly. Cold temperatures cause them to fall out of solution. They can get darker with age.

Thanks, Kris, actually I knew that. I was commenting more on how to identify them vs unfiltered solids.

[Ed_Murray]

@Peter Kleban

@James Wright

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

I believe tartrates are tasteless

[Peter_Kleban]

@Ed Murray

@Peter Kleban

@James Wright

I was thinking exactly of tartrates—these were very coarse solids, matchstick-size, ragged and dark

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Really? I had a precipitate in a white wine that had been in the fridge that fit the description of tartrate (actually, IIRC it’s bitartrate) and tasted very acidic.

[Ed_Murray]

@Peter Kleban

@Ed Murray

@Peter Kleban

I believe (please correct me if necessary) that tartrates taste very acid, and often look crystalline, while unfiltered solids aren’t particularly, and would never look crystalline.

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Really? I had a precipitate in a white wine that had been in the fridge that fit the description of tartrate (actually, IIRC it’s bitartrate) and tasted very acidic.

That’s my understanding - but it could be a misunderstanding.
I’ve tried them a few times and found them tasteless to me, but then again - consider the source - my palate sux!

[Roberto_Rogness]

Anyone remember Deinhard’s “Wine Diamonds” ads from the 70’s & 80’s? Those tartrates in their wines were “your seal of quality” guaranteeing they had not filtered the life out of them.

[Merrill_Lindquist]

@James Wright

how could one differentiate between normal sedimentation in an unfiltered Dolcetto di Dogliani, as opposed to solids that have precipitated out of the wine because of temperature variation during shipping, storage, or otherwise?

what’s normal, guys/ladies?

What vintage are you talking about?

[G_D_y_e_r]

@Kris Patten

Tartrates are tartaric acid which crystalizes and falls out of solution if the wine is not cold stabilized properly.

So you would consider a wine that throws out tartrate crystals to be improper in some way? I suppose the fact that tartaric acid is coming out of solution would change the acid balance point a bit. But otherwise it seems like entirely a cosmetic issue.

Consumers who are used to highly processed food think tartrate crystals are some contamination or even glass shards. Which is quite ironic because the crystals are a sign of less handling/treatment, not more. The issue is more that consumers are not properly educated as opposed to improper cold stabilization, IMO.

[chaad_thomas]

@Kris Patten

@James Wright

how could one differentiate between normal sedimentation in an unfiltered Dolcetto di Dogliani, as opposed to solids that have precipitated out of the wine because of temperature variation during shipping, storage, or otherwise?

what’s normal, guys/ladies?

The only things that would precipitate out due to temperature would be tartrates, nothing would due to heat or mis-storage. Otherwise sediment is just due to lack of filtering before bottling.

Yes, this is my understanding as well, with the tartrates forming as small crystals, not long chain solids.

[James_Wright]

thank you all for responding,

I am doing some background on an encounter with a snooty and dismissive sommelier, who Saturday night waved off my showing him a significant deposit of tough solids in the remains of a glass of 08 Dolcetto that I drank, explaining as he breezed past that the wine was unfiltered.
He had cautioned me previously that the wine was tannic, and since my info on Italian wines is ages out of date, I feel the need to have some background information before I pursue the conversation further. From my formative years I am not used to Dolcetto being tannic, but realise that while I am quite current with my fields of specialisation, there are others where I am a decade or two behind. And it occured to me that perhaps the wine was tannic because it had suffered from temperature fluctuation at some stage of its evolution. Any ideas?

thanks!

[Ken_V]

@Ed Murray

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Then they should fit in quite well around here.

[Bill_Boykin]

@K V a s t o l a

@Ed Murray

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Then they should fit in quite well around here.

[Ken_V]

@James Wright

thank you all for responding,

I am doing some background on an encounter with a snooty and dismissive sommelier, who Saturday night waved off my showing him a significant deposit of tough solids in the remains of a glass of 08 Dolcetto that I drank, explaining as he breezed past that the wine was unfiltered.
He had cautioned me previously that the wine was tannic, and since my info on Italian wines is ages out of date, I feel the need to have some background information before I pursue the conversation further. From my formative years I am not used to Dolcetto being tannic, but realise that while I am quite current with my fields of specialisation, there are others where I am a decade or two behind. And it occured to me that perhaps the wine was tannic because it had suffered from temperature fluctuation at some stage of its evolution. Any ideas?

thanks!

There is no way that a 2008 Dolcetto should seem tannic in the sense that a young Barolo or a Bordeaux might. Dolcetto doesn’t produce anything like that kind of structure. Whatever tannin there is should be overwhelmed by the fruit. Who is the producer? Did you just get a glass or was this the last glass from a bottle?

[James_Wright]

@K V a s t o l a

@James Wright

thank you all for responding,

I am doing some background on an encounter with a snooty and dismissive sommelier, who Saturday night waved off my showing him a significant deposit of tough solids in the remains of a glass of 08 Dolcetto that I drank, explaining as he breezed past that the wine was unfiltered.
He had cautioned me previously that the wine was tannic, and since my info on Italian wines is ages out of date, I feel the need to have some background information before I pursue the conversation further. From my formative years I am not used to Dolcetto being tannic, but realise that while I am quite current with my fields of specialisation, there are others where I am a decade or two behind. And it occured to me that perhaps the wine was tannic because it had suffered from temperature fluctuation at some stage of its evolution. Any ideas?

thanks!

There is no way that a 2008 Dolcetto should seem tannic in the sense that a young Barolo or a Bordeaux might. Dolcetto doesn’t produce anything like that kind of structure. Whatever tannin there is should be overwhelmed by the fruit. Who is the producer? Did you just get a glass or was this the last glass from a bottle?

just a glass, which I hope was the last one out of the bottle from the look of it.
producer I’d never heard of…

[Ken_V]

@James Wright

just a glass, which I hope was the last one out of the bottle from the look of it.
producer I’d never heard of…

First of all, what is a restaurant doing giving you a glass of wine with schmutz in it regardless of the source? It might be natural in the bottle, but why should it end up in a glass for a customer?

Second, I would assume this means that the bottle was not in some kind of preservation system. So I would bet that the bottle had been open on the counter for a very long time with the cork stuck in. There is no way he should have done anything but open a fresh bottle for you and give you a free glass.

Did it have a “smoky” taste? I’m thinking someone put a cigarette out in a nearly finished bottle some time in August, and you got to drink it.

[James_Wright]

@K V a s t o l a

@James Wright

just a glass, which I hope was the last one out of the bottle from the look of it.
producer I’d never heard of…

First of all, what is a restaurant doing giving you a glass of wine with schmutz in it regardless of the source? It might be natural in the bottle, but why should it end up in a glass for a customer?

Second, I would assume this means that the bottle was not in some kind of preservation system. So I would bet that the bottle had been open on the counter for a very long time with the cork stuck in. There is no way he should have done anything but open a fresh bottle for you and give you a free glass.

Did it have a “smoky” taste? I’m thinking someone put a cigarette out in a nearly finished bottle some time in August, and you got to drink it.

the entire experience was sufficiently novel for me to triangulate the fellow’s occupation, name and Facebook page, where I sent him the following personal message:

James Wright 25 October at 20:36
“so even if the Dolcetto was unfiltered,
why did the sludge have to end up in my glass?
xo
J”

got back the message

“Please do not email me.
(signed)”