¿stupid? question from an old pro re: tannic Dolcetto and dilatory service

[Ken_V]

@James Wright

@K V a s t o l a

@James Wright

just a glass, which I hope was the last one out of the bottle from the look of it.
producer I’d never heard of…

First of all, what is a restaurant doing giving you a glass of wine with schmutz in it regardless of the source? It might be natural in the bottle, but why should it end up in a glass for a customer?

Second, I would assume this means that the bottle was not in some kind of preservation system. So I would bet that the bottle had been open on the counter for a very long time with the cork stuck in. There is no way he should have done anything but open a fresh bottle for you and give you a free glass.

Did it have a “smoky” taste? I’m thinking someone put a cigarette out in a nearly finished bottle some time in August, and you got to drink it.

the entire experience was sufficiently novel for me to triangulate the fellow’s occupation, name and Facebook page, where I sent him the following personal message:

James Wright 25 October at 20:36
“so even if the Dolcetto was unfiltered,
why did the sludge have to end up in my glass?
xo
J”

got back the message

“Please do not email me.
(signed)”

Did he ask you not to be coy either?

[Mark.Ricca]

Dolcettos from my experience can vary with producer style and region (Alba, Asti, Dogliani). We’ve been loving the '08 Dolcetto Langhe from Aldo Conterno. It seems pretty weighty to me for a Dolcetto, but at the same time is not modern in style at all. I agree with Ken on the tannins.

Abbona makes a couple of Dolcetto Doglianis including this one which I love:

I recall seeing sediment in that wine at least a couple of times.

[Mark.Ricca]

ABSO-FREAKIN’-LUTELY!!!

C’mon Jim. Out this DB and the restaurant he works in…

[John_Morris]

Actually, I believe that dolcetto has a fairly high level of tannins (Dolcetto - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), but they are soft – certainly not astringent like nebbiolo’s. (Think zin tannins.) What it doesn’t have is a lot of acid. In that respect, it’s the reverse of barbera, which has little natural tannin (one reason for putting it in barrique) but high acid levels.

[Peter_Kleban]

@K V a s t o l a

@Ed Murray

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Then they should fit in quite well around here.

Ditto if they’re acidic…

[Kris_Patten]

@G. D y e r

@Kris Patten

Tartrates are tartaric acid which crystalizes and falls out of solution if the wine is not cold stabilized properly.

So you would consider a wine that throws out tartrate crystals to be improper in some way? I suppose the fact that tartaric acid is coming out of solution would change the acid balance point a bit. But otherwise it seems like entirely a cosmetic issue.

Consumers who are used to highly processed food think tartrate crystals are some contamination or even glass shards. Which is quite ironic because the crystals are a sign of less handling/treatment, not more. The issue is more that consumers are not properly educated as opposed to improper cold stabilization, IMO.

Greg,

They are improper in that they weren’t cold stabilized properly, nothing more. It doesn’t affect the wine in any way other than cosmetically it could look odd to novices.

Tartrates don’t fall out of solution if then wine is cold stabilized to the proper temp, so yes, it is improper cold stabilization, and not maintaining the temp long enough.

[Roberto_Rogness]

“Cold stabilized properly”?!?!?

A lot of great wines (and nearly 100% of my favorite beers) are not cold stabilized.

[G_D_y_e_r]

@chaad thomas

@Kris Patten

The only things that would precipitate out due to temperature would be tartrates, nothing would due to heat or mis-storage. Otherwise sediment is just due to lack of filtering before bottling.

Yes, this is my understanding as well, with the tartrates forming as small crystals, not long chain solids.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I’ve found them more often as little crystals, but occaisionally there are stick-like crystalline formations. Crystal growth depends on a lot of factors–concentration, temperature, pressure, etc.–and growth conditions will affect the crystalline structure and macroscopic morphology. Generally the thermodynamically favored structure will depend upon growth conditions.

I guess we need to do some powder x-ray diffractometry on the cube-like and stick-like crystals to see if they differ in structure.

[James_Wright]

I think that I have figured the problem out for myself—

the only time I have seen this extravagant degree of sediment before was from an unfiltered Zweigelt that I popped into the fridge for several days to retard oxidation.

it came out, warmed up, and left a most unsightly mass of dots and crosses in the glass when the glass was done.

so what had happened, I infer, is that the restaurant was out to wring the last possible piaster out of their bottle of Dolcetto, and had refrigerated it overnight, which led to assembling the most unsightly deposit which adorned my glass once the wine was gone.

[Paul_Jaouen]

@John Morris

Actually, I believe that dolcetto has a fairly high level of tannins (Dolcetto - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), but they are soft – certainly not astringent like nebbiolo’s. (Think zin tannins.) What it doesn’t have is a lot of acid. In that respect, it’s the reverse of barbera, which has little natural tannin (one reason for putting it in barrique) but high acid levels.

Strange. I neither find dolcetto to be tannic nor have a bitter finish. Their softness and lack of structure make most of them uninteresting for me.

So James, where were you? Or did I miss that post.

[Roberto_Rogness]

This thread is about a Dogliani Dolcetto (new DOCG, formerly DOC), a MUCH more concentrated, earthy and mineral driven wine than most of what is in the market from Alba or even Ovada…

[James_Kapon]

@K V a s t o l a

@James Wright

thank you all for responding,

I am doing some background on an encounter with a snooty and dismissive sommelier, who Saturday night waved off my showing him a significant deposit of tough solids in the remains of a glass of 08 Dolcetto that I drank, explaining as he breezed past that the wine was unfiltered.
He had cautioned me previously that the wine was tannic, and since my info on Italian wines is ages out of date, I feel the need to have some background information before I pursue the conversation further. From my formative years I am not used to Dolcetto being tannic, but realise that while I am quite current with my fields of specialisation, there are others where I am a decade or two behind. And it occured to me that perhaps the wine was tannic because it had suffered from temperature fluctuation at some stage of its evolution. Any ideas?

thanks!

There is no way that a 2008 Dolcetto should seem tannic in the sense that a young Barolo or a Bordeaux might. Dolcetto doesn’t produce anything like that kind of structure. Whatever tannin there is should be overwhelmed by the fruit. Who is the producer? Did you just get a glass or was this the last glass from a bottle?

I don’t know about that. There are a couple of producers that can pack the weight onto their dolcettos without it seeming heavy-handed. Like a young barolo or bordeaux? No, but there are more substantial efforts of Dolcetto out there. They don’t all have to evoke California Merlots from the 80s.

James, did you ask for another glass or a different bottle? I can’t imagine someone in the biz saying, “no, drink it or fuck off”. Though I have had several bad experiences with sommeliers recently, I guess I wouldn’t be surprised.

[Frank_Deis]

@Peter Kleban

@K V a s t o l a

@Ed Murray

I believe tartrates are tasteless

Then they should fit in quite well around here.

Ditto if they’re acidic…

Tartates do have a sour taste, and they are used sometimes in sour flavored candy.

Tartaric acid - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Peter_Kleban]

@Frank Deis

@Peter Kleban

@K V a s t o l a

Then they should fit in quite well around here.

Ditto if they’re acidic…

Tartates do have a sour taste, and they are used sometimes in sour flavored candy.

Tartaric acid - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So the next sour post, we’ll know why !

[James_Wright]

@James Kapon

@K V a s t o l a

@James Wright

thank you all for responding,

I am doing some background on an encounter with a snooty and dismissive sommelier, who Saturday night waved off my showing him a significant deposit of tough solids in the remains of a glass of 08 Dolcetto that I drank, explaining as he breezed past that the wine was unfiltered.
He had cautioned me previously that the wine was tannic, and since my info on Italian wines is ages out of date, I feel the need to have some background information before I pursue the conversation further. From my formative years I am not used to Dolcetto being tannic, but realise that while I am quite current with my fields of specialisation, there are others where I am a decade or two behind. And it occured to me that perhaps the wine was tannic because it had suffered from temperature fluctuation at some stage of its evolution. Any ideas?

thanks!

There is no way that a 2008 Dolcetto should seem tannic in the sense that a young Barolo or a Bordeaux might. Dolcetto doesn’t produce anything like that kind of structure. Whatever tannin there is should be overwhelmed by the fruit. Who is the producer? Did you just get a glass or was this the last glass from a bottle?

I don’t know about that. There are a couple of producers that can pack the weight onto their dolcettos without it seeming heavy-handed. Like a young barolo or bordeaux? No, but there are more substantial efforts of Dolcetto out there. They don’t all have to evoke California Merlots from the 80s.

James, did you ask for another glass or a different bottle? I can’t imagine someone in the biz saying, “no, drink it or f*ck off”. Though I have had several bad experiences with sommeliers recently, I guess I wouldn’t be surprised.

no, i found the sludge at the bottom of the glass—the flavour of the wine was within the drinkable range—my head-cold had given me a noggin the size of a basketball, my date was not a wine-person (and I wasn’t 25 yearsold with a need to impress her), I had a spicy dish (not just my date, but the one on the table—pork cheeks with gnocchi), and certainly the martini had tasted better, but I put that down to the headcold. I think this was just a bottle couple days old that had been refrigerated. The issue was a physical wave-off and general unwillingness to engage. And I didn’t identify myself as an august wine-expert. Shouldna hadda…

[Peter_Cargasacchi]

1. Properly cold stabilized.
   Very few red wines, if any, are cold stabilized. The only reason a red wine is ever cold stabilized is if someone fucked up and the wine has too much acid. It is used as part of a corrective procedure to remove tartaric acid by adding potassium, but first you have to precipitate the salts.

2. Tartrates.
   The sediment is not tartaric acid. It is potassium bitartrate. It is a salt formed by tartaric acid and potassium and it is unstable and its solubility is temperature dependent along with other things in the wine solution. The relationship of wine pH is largely driven by potassium and tartaric acid. Sites with low potassium tend to produce wines with lower pH at lower total acidity because there is less potassium buffering the acid. Its a real part of terroir, and one facet of why calcereous soils are great. Calcium has two charges and potassium only has one, in the soil solution (cation exchange,) calcium displaces potassium and makes it less available.

If you want to determing the taste of the sediments, open your kitchen cabinet and pull out the creme of tartar. Creme of tartar is potassium bitartrate.


Many winemakers who read the wineboards are afraid to post because there is so much content on the wine boards, that is not based on reality. I blame the French.

[JG_Salazar]

DB attitude aside, I’ve noticed plenty of Dolcettos, Pecchenino in particular, tend to come with these “diamonds” frequently. The wines are always tasty, but the last glass can get pretty gritty.

I’m sure you freaked him out with the old Facebook chestnut!

[James_Wright]

@JG Salazar

DB attitude aside, I’ve noticed plenty of Dolcettos, Pecchenino in particular, tend to come with these “diamonds” frequently. The wines are always tasty, but the last glass can get pretty gritty.

I’m sure you freaked him out with the old Facebook chestnut!

did indeed. further research reveals that he would rather be standing on stage someplace dark and empty wearing a guitar than pouring wine in a restaurant, and I did send off a terse little ditty to his employer in an idle moment this AM…

[chaad_thomas]

@Roberto Rogness

This thread is about a Dogliani Dolcetto (new DOCG, formerly DOC), a MUCH more concentrated, earthy and mineral driven wine than most of what is in the market from Alba or even Ovada…

I’m guessing Roagna, from the Dressner portfolio.

[chaad_thomas]

@G. D y e r

@chaad thomas

@Kris Patten

The only things that would precipitate out due to temperature would be tartrates, nothing would due to heat or mis-storage. Otherwise sediment is just due to lack of filtering before bottling.

Yes, this is my understanding as well, with the tartrates forming as small crystals, not long chain solids.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. I’ve found them more often as little crystals, but occaisionally there are stick-like crystalline formations. Crystal growth depends on a lot of factors–concentration, temperature, pressure, etc.–and growth conditions will affect the crystalline structure and macroscopic morphology. Generally the thermodynamically favored structure will depend upon growth conditions.

I guess we need to do some powder x-ray diffractometry on the cube-like and stick-like crystals to see if they differ in structure.

Yes, they clump together in many different configurations (e.g. sticks, sheets), but the structural constituents are, as you note, crystalline (i.e. small crystals). Those are different than some of the other types of “long chain solids” one might find, though, consisting of what I think are mostly tannins, proteins, etc.

In any case, I don’t mean to speak with definitive authority, as I haven’t done any rigorous study of the makeup of sediment. I have only my thoughtful experience to call upon here!