Should Wineberserkers Try to Attract Younger Members?

WINE TALK
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I don’t want to continue to dunk on boomers but often their attitudes and manner of speaking is extremely off-putting to younger people, regardless of their intentions.

At Paulee last year, completely out of the blue I had some 70 year old rando try to mansplain the difference between Savigny Les Beaune and Chorey Les Beaune to me (incorrectly, also).

I’m not always as nice as I can be and I’m trying to work on that in the new year but tone is also important here, imo at least, and wine is already an intimidating hobby with the vast amount of information out there.

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Intimidation is, in my opinion, the culprit for many of my peers. Not necessarily even with people, but just with wine and the wine world in general. It’s intimidating to learn the names of all the grape varieties, and how they’re different from each other. And then it’s intimidating to learn that old world regions don’t use grape names so now you need to learn which place uses which grape. Then you venture out to buy what you perceive as a “nice” bottle only to be underwhelmed and learn that you drank it too soon and that’s why it wasn’t at its peak. Meanwhile, for other alcohol alternatives (beer, liquor) those challenges don’t exist. Having said that, all of these nuances/intimidation factors are what drew me INTO wine because the rabbit hole is so large and never ending.

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Great topic @ Robert_Dentice. I’ve got lots of thoughts. I do hope I don’t come off as too whiny. The value I’ve gotten from this board over the years has been invaluable- I love interacting with all of you and availing myself of your vast collective wisdom. None of the below is meant as a knock on anyone, particularly Todd, who maintains this wonderful forum.

In general, alcohol consumption is decreasing. Wine consumption is decreasing even faster and the decline is most pronounced among young people. So there’s that. But, regarding WBers specifically:

Real Name Policy- No one has mentioned this yet, but I think it’s a big one. People don’t want their real name out there on the internet, especially associated with a wine forum. I think it’s a deterrent for a lot of people. It was for me initially, and since joining, even with spaces and special characters so posts don’t pop on Google, I’ve had several people figure out who I am in real life from my posts on this board. As young people live more and more of their life online, this is a big deterrent to participating. Reddit and Instagram don’t have this barrier. I personally have at least two wine aficionados who won’t join WBers bc of the real name policy.

Wealth gap- I’m not adding anything that hasn’t already been said, but I think this is the number one deterrent for young people. The level of affluence here is extremely high. For every “I just drank a $17 bottle” post, there are a dozen touting bottles that are multiple hundreds/thousands of dollars.

@m_blasco’s finding that recent purchase average is nearly $500/btl is not surprising at all. Another example: the 2024 WOTY thread. People have listed tens of thousands of dollars worth of wine, and that’s just their “best of” list. I realize a list like this will have expensive stuff, but I can imagine that it would be discourage to those getting into the hobby knowing they will never be able to try the top stuff, even a single time. Sometimes makes you want to throw up you hands and say “what’s even the point”.

I have a few beer afficianado friends. One recently said to me that he’s reluctant to get into wine: “with beer, it’s tough to find anything approaching $75 per bottle, whereas with wine, this is more of an entry point”. He’s not wrong.

Snobbery- I was into the whisky scene for a while, and I’ve said, I have friends who are super into beer. For whatever reason, wine is way more snobby. Always has been. People in the whisky and beer worlds spend very little time telling each other why they’re wrong or enjoying their beverage of choice incorrectly. There’s lots of that here. And ErickH is right when he said WBers is "more jugmental’ than other forums.

Tech- This board has a very retro interface and functionality. I don’t mind it, but I can imagine a GenZer seeing this board and instantly getting turned off. Lots of first time posters get told “search for older threads”. Well you know what? The search function on this site sucks- so much so that I needed to create a thread to figure out how to find anything. Again, it’s a barrier to entry.

Hostility to Natural Wine- I’m in agreement with many on this board, specifically that natural wines are not inherently better than anything else and many of them are flawed. Some are great, others not, but being purely dogmatic about being “natural” doesn’t get you anywhere. But keep in mind, this is the category of wine that is most popular among young people, and judgy attitudes about natural wine can certainly turn away a younger demographic. This board is a bit hostile to natural wines, so it may turn off younger newcomers.

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While I think the wealth gap thing is to some degree an issue, it doesn’t seem to be as much on instagram, Reddit, discord, etc. I see people posting DRC and Petrus whatever and mostly get positive comments and a few questions, here people are like why tf did you open that now, or that vintage sucks etc (obviously not every comment, but much more so than on other sites).

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I’m genuine curious, what kind of platform you would prefer?

As a boomer, who didn’t even have a calculator until junior year of college, and thought it was miraculous that I could write my Ph.D. thesis on an early IBM PC, using a word processing program called Volkswriter, I have no complaints lol. I actually really love this platform, the cleanness, the tools, the ability to quote, bring back threads from years ago, etc. Sure, there are a few small annoyances, but I honestly can’t think of any other popular social media platform I would want to switch to from this one.

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I think having the threads staying for posterity is good, potentially better than most sites (although Reddit is good for that too). The bigger issue is with search, it just… sucks.

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Easy solve for lackluster search…1) go to Google 2) add “site:wineberserkers.com {your search here}”

Works wonders :+1:

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Reddit is a horrible interface, for me. It’s just ugly.

Could search be better? Sure. Google has made trillions by perfecting search, and spent a lot to do it. Can’t really expect a small forum software platform to match that. My response is be smarter about formulating your search. I usually find what I’m looking for without too much effort.

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Yeah I usually do that, but I was looking for a specific post the other day and neither google nor the search worked very well. I eventually found it but it was much harder than expected.

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It’s better in the app. The biggest issue with Reddit is not being able to change the title of posts or in some subreddits link multiple pictures.

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I see the occasional snobbishness and ridicule here. It doesn’t seem rampant but it sticks out like a sore thumb when it happens. It helps to realize that the problem is not with the recipient of the ridicule but with those expressing it. Not so easy if you’re new to WB. It tends to turn people away before they get to know the place.

So kudos @Robert_Dentice for starting this thread.

No doubt that’s intimidating, though it’s unlikely to represent reality. Even for those making the posts, it’s unlikely that their average (or median) bottle cost is $400-500. I doubt they’re posting every bottle they bought or opened. Just the ones they think will be interesting, which tend to be the rarities or high-end ones.

Is it because they think people on the board don’t care about the less costly bottles? Because they figure everyone is already familiar with the every day drinkers and they don’t want to bore readers by posting on them? Because they want to flex? Because they’d feel somehow less well regarded for posting about every day drinkers? Because they have only so much time/energy and the portions of it allocated to WB are devoted to posting about the wines that excited them most?

Probably most or all of the above, and it’s not likely to stop. But it’s a shame that it’s so intimidating. If only people realized these aren’t representative of the typical bottle bought or opened by the typical Berserker.

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Hi Dave!
At 30, you’re already well ahead of where I was at your age, i.e., I knew literally nothing about wine. If I had to choose a glass from a list of Cabernet, merlot, Chianti, Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc while out with my gf, I was lost lol. It’s taken me 40 years to get to where I am, which is knowing a bit, but there is so much more to learn and experience.

This isn’t directed at you, but I’ll use your post to respond: as someone looking in the rear view mirror at a lot more of life than is ahead of me, I would trade my entire cellar to be back where you are now. You probably don’t have kids yet (I didn’t at your age either), but if/when you do they will be a lot more important than wine. Yet you are already building a foundation of wine knowledge and experience that will do you well the rest of your life, if you choose to stay interested.

I suspect every generation looks at the generation(s) ahead of them, and thinks “those guys had it so good for buying the good stuff”. But we had all the same challenges you do, went down plenty of the wrong wine rabbit holes, wasted plenty of time and money on wine we didn’t always end up enjoying. And many of the great wines we celebrate today were not even on anyone’s radar back then. I tasted and drank my share of Verset 30 years ago, but never gave it a lot of thought, didn’t collect it when it was pretty cheap. Now it’s like gold lol. Point being, for every generation there will be under the radar gems for you to find that eventually become the polished diamonds everyone seeks. It’s no challenge to shell out hundreds or thousands for wines everyone already knows are great, the thrill is finding the interesting wines that are diamonds in the rough.

On Riesling, I’m also a fan. Have been buying for 25 years or so. Earlier more German, the past decade mainly Austria. I know nothing about finger lakes, possibly because we don’t see those much on the west coast. So start a finger lakes thread, I’d love to be educated :wine_glass:

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The real names policy is one of the things I like about WB. I don’t understand the reluctance unless they are being stalked by a crazed ex or want to be able to anonymously make an ass of themselves online. For those who do join, the real names policy fosters the sense of community .

Agree completely that this is a turn-off. Telling someone to go search without any other comment is lazy and arrogant and comes off as cliquey rather than welcoming. If you know there’s a thread addressing the question, find it and post a link in your response. Or add a few salient points or summarize it.

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I guess I’m a bit of an exception, because I generally post every single bottle I open (and buy) here. The price per bottle for both is likely higher than what was posted above.

That being said, I drink much less than the vast majority of people on this site, in the last 2 months basically just the RSNA week and one holiday party, otherwise nothing. I do a wine event maybe every 2 months and maybe the occasional dinner and otherwise don’t drink. The wines I opened from my cellar in November and December of this year were:

17 Bruno Clair Beze
13 Rousseau CDLR
07 Salon
07 MG Ruchottes
07 Rousseau CSJ
21 MG Vosne Romanee
17 Bruno Clair Bonnes Mares

That’s it. I had maybe 5 other wines than that that were opened by others, but that’s it. I did also share all the bottles with either younger berserkers or non-berserkers just getting into wine so I guess there’s that.

My purchases are mostly more expensive wine for the same reason, because I’m selling the cheaper wines because I don’t drink enough, and putting some of the funds for a few pricier bottles.

That all being said, you’re probably right when it comes to berserkers at large. If you’re drinking wine every night most ppl aren’t likely not opening $400 bottles.

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Real name policy is literally the best thing about this board. It would not be palatable without it.

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Those threads, such as the state of the wine market threads, for me, often exemplify the off-putting aspect for younger folks. It’s full of older folks speculating on why the hypothetical young person isn’t as into wine as they are. Some (I’m assuming millennial-aged people, myself included, have tried to post some explanations in those threads), but these posts tend to just get ignored in favor of the hypothetical young person and Bah! Instagram for clicks! Bah! These influencers are ruining XYZ!

I can’t speak for Discord, but in terms of Instagram–well it’s a platform for sharing pictures and you have a lot of control over who you follow. It’s not really a place for discussion. Most of us see a picture on a Instagram–it’s something I like–I click the heart and move on. It’s a few seconds top. I would never think of using Instagram as a resource the same way I use WB as a resource. Reddit’s karma system also encourages better behavior–people who are seen as mean just get downvoted to oblivion.

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Great thread @Robert_Dentice!

Seems to me a lot here is actually actionable.

People can be nicer and less condescending. It’s not that hard. (I try to catch myself on that front and hopefully succeed most of the time, especially with people I don’t know.)

We could start two threads that seem to be of strong interest. (They’re of interest to me.)

  • What did you drink last night under $40 a bottle? ($30?)

  • What natural wine did you drink last night? (With an informal rule not to crap on natural wine generally in that thread that doesn’t preclude identifying flaws for people)

Do younger members think these threads would be helpful to start addressing the issues? I drink a ton of wines in both these categories. I admit I mostly post the shots to Instagram rather than post notes these days. Laziness.

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Can’t speak of LasseK, but your posts have been some of most helpful and entertaining when it comes to Bordeaux. Got me to buy a few bottles of BAMA to try for the first time a few months ago.

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This is an awesome idea about those ‘new to wine.’

It’s also important to realize WB cannot be everything to everyone.

Is there a bigger ‘mission statement’ to be discussed!

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It’s easy to see both sides of this. I agree it’s important as we have all seen what happens otherwise but I also respect that certain people don’t want their name out there talking about wine and that means those people won’t play.

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