If I look back 15-20+ years (I have been on wine discussion forums for 28 years) and maybe not even that long ago there was a lot more discussion about where to find value (QPR) in wine, and robust discussions about good value wines. Now a tasting note on a $20 wine, even if it is delicious, plummets into obscurity.
Where is a young person without scads of free cash supposed to start? I think the segregation of certain wines that often have good value options (e.g., Bedrock, Riesling, etc.) into their own ghetto threads is unhelpful in this regard, as it makes it harder to pick out info on individual wines.
Just for amusement, I looked at last ten bottles posted in āwhat did you open todayā and āwhat is your most recent purchaseā. This is why this place is somewhat intimidating for younger, newer wine drinkers.
Open today average bottle cost: $410
Recent purchase average bottle cost: $492 (amusingly saved by @Robert.A.Jr having a 12-pack of $30 beers flown by helicopter cross country and the fact that I didnāt include @Blair_Ridley Rousseau allocation because I have no idea how much it is [but I assume it is eye watering]. I also included the 750mL price of 2002 Salon at $1286 instead of $3000 magnum price).
Anyway Iām sitting here enjoying my very nice $27 bottle of Chateau Cambon Brouilly and learning.
Hi - Iāve been lurking on WB for about 5-6 years and signed up for an account maybe a year ago but this is my first post (Hi!). Iām an elder millennial who was fortunate to get a job while in college at a winery in Virginia so I got the wine bug early. Until about 5 years ago I didnāt have the financial means to enjoy the upper echelons of the wine world, nor did I have any older āwine role modelsā who could teach me by example, share bottles from their cellars, etc. As a result, my wine journey has mostly been one of self exploration and learning. Fortunately, in my late 20s I became friends with a few wine professionals who greatly expanded my wine horizons. I share all that as a bit of context for my perspective on this topic.
Iāve found reading on WB to be an incredible source of insight into wine. That insight made it worth 1) dealing with a somewhat less than ideal format / technology platform (including those super annoying ads as someone mentioned earlier), and 2) ignoring the significant level of judgment a subset of loud posters have about āthe right viewsā on wine. The second part comes with the territory of an online board of any kind, but being someone who participates in a variety of other hobby boards my experience is this board is more judgmental than most. That judgment is the single biggest reason Iāve never posted before - I just donāt need that kind of negativity or irritation in my life. Iām busy enough dealing with real life negativity when it arises across work, family, friends, neighbors, etc - I want my wine life to be fun, interesting, and a source of positive energy in my life not the opposite. Itās not that I canāt handle a good debate - to the contrary I love them! But getting judged by wine snobs because of what I drink or how I choose to drink it isnāt worth the time or energy. So instead, Iāve been one of those younger board members who lurks and reads but chooses not to enter the fray.
I do think there are many active posters who do an amazing job of sharing insight in a welcoming and engaging way. I could probably name 5-10 easily. These folks are the best of this board and Iām grateful they are willing to share their perspectives. This board just has a lot of others who share their insight with a lot of unnecessary negative baggage.
Anyways, thatās my two (or ten) cents on this topic. I hope everyone had a happy holiday season and maybe 2025 will be the year I become a more active Berserker.
As I said, I donāt think thatās at all typical. I personally have never paid over $400 for any bottle of wine, let alone do it routinely. I have broken $300, but thatās a very rare purchase. Most of my bottles are well under $100, and wines for everyday drinking are probably in the $20-50 range. Even that is high for the average person, no doubt, but wine is my hobby lol.
That was sorta my fault with the salon mags, but the dureuil janthial wines were much less expensive, significantly lower than WSP low, so that shouldāve brought down the totals! Also the salon was quite a bit cheaper than WSP low too, more than 10% lower than what you quoted.
Iāll bite. Iām 30. Traveled France for my honeymoon a year and a half ago, and in preparation for the honeymoon, I got bit by the wine bug. Iāve spent probably on average ~2 hours every day for the last year and a half reading/listening to podcasts, and researching wine, Iām obsessed. In my circle of friends/peers/coworkers, my wife and I are easily the highest earners. With the amount of grad school debt, debt from starting a business, and just the cost of living in general, I can really only stomach spending ~$35/bottle. In fact Iāll run the numbers, I keep a spreadsheet of my wines I have in my wine coolerā¦ I have 52 bottles of wine, and they average out to cost $35.25 apiece. I can share my list of my collection if it helps anyone gleam info as to what a 30 year old chronic lurker has purchased. But what is so tough about this forum, as an example, is I enjoy Riesling. My first love was quality Finger Lakes Riesling (think Wiemer, Dr. Frank, Ravines, Boundary Breaks, Forge, Weiss, Red Newt, Kelby Russell, etcā¦ Iām sure Iām forgetting more). I think most wine people would acknowledge that the finger lakes makes good Riesling. The beautiful part for me are they usually cost $20-35 for some of the finer examples, which works nicely into my budget. There is a thread with over 1,000 posts about āwhat Riesling are you drinkingā and 5 comments are about the finger lakes. If my memory serves me correctly when I was reading that thread in the past, it was chock full of people discussing 10, 15, 20 year old + bottles and/or plenty of bottles that were just simply out of my price range. Which is cool, itās fun to read. But what does a guy like me have to share in a thread like that? And there are more examples like that on this board. I make good, dare I say great, money for my age, but most of the talk on here is just WAYYYY out of my price range to currently participate in.
Somewhat ironically given the talk of Burgundy popularity in this thread, it wasnāt that long ago that the same could be said about Burgundy. Maybe still so today given the price that may not make sense to people. But when red Burgundy could be leaner and greener as well as often loaded with the barnyard funk, a few expensive bunk experiences could end the exploration of the Cote.
One thing to think about, it is the holiday season right now, so people are being celebratory. I know Iāve popped some great wines over the past two weeks. But tonight I went for an old favorite, a 2010 Baudry Grezeaux. These are very affordable. The 2022 got a 94+ from John Gilman and is about $30. I paid far less for this. And to be candid, the margin of difference between a wine like this and a wine that cost five times more sometimes can be very small, sometimes not at all.
Younger person here. Canāt remember how I found this forum but was lurking for a year. Ended up coordinating a berserkers event in Seattle a few months ago and tried (and then bought) my first ever Dujac. 2 years ago I had never even heard that name.
Attending the La Paulee NYC tasting to learn even more!
Totally agree with this. This is partly why I would encourage younger winos, or really anyone of relatively limited means post more about what theyāre liking. I think there can be a misconception about wine that to āget the full experienceā itās going to cost. The reality is that many of the wines that are now very expensive were not so expensive once upon a time. Longtime posters here know this. Still tons of really good wines out there under $50 and quite a few under $30.
Iāve been on WB for quite a while now, after moving from a somewhat more sedate board, Wine Lovers Discussion Group, where some of the people here still also post. I am also a (late) Boomer. On both boards, though iāve learned an enormous amount, especially here on WB. It just continuously astonishes me how much can be found out about all levels of wine and all regions here, by knowledgeable and judicious folks. Sure, there are a few a-holes and ongoing feuds that are confusing to many of us,but that seems relatively easy to ignore.
That said, I can also see how it can be tough for people starting out to read about these phenomenal bottles, which they will never see or drink, which is largely true of me, as well. Itās good to remember, though, that in many cases folks bought them long ago and that is why they have them and can afford to drink them now. Also, I have found that wine people are some of the most generous you can meetāeager to share bottles with the others who care about wine. So the offline piece, reaching out to WBāers or signing up for events on the relevant page can be a great way to become more comfy with the people on the board and wine more generally.
I mean, I do think that this is an issue sometimes with some more off the beaten path regions; most likely the best way to discuss it would be to make a thread with essentially the post you just made titled āwhat finger lakes rieslings do you like?ā Or something and imagine a lot of people actually do have experiences with finger lakes rieslings, and hopefully no one tells you to use search.
I like some semi-obscure wines Iāve come across like Hungarian reds, okanagan wines, valetllina, and some non-Etna Sicilian wines, and people just donāt talk about them a whole lot.
Fortunately I mostly like burgs and champagne and ppl do talk about them a lot, but thatās a whole other issue
I do think thereās a lot of really good wine out there at the <$35 price point though, even IN burgundy, but especially in Spain, Italy, Oregon, etc.
Probably true. My whole burgundy experience was very skewed but once I started mostly exploring burgs on my own, I definitely tried a lot of them before really finding ones I really liked.
1.700 new members in a year is a lot! I wonder why we hardly see them. I hope some will comment here.
Iāll just give a list of some points. Still sick today so my mind is blank and I wonāt write much.
Millennial here. 33 years.
1: the forum format is outdated, yes, but I also donāt see a new and better way to discuss. Itās great that you can quote, cross-link etc. These are things I guess even Threads or Instagram canāt do. Maybe itās worth having a look at /r/wine for ideas. But even then I find thereās a lot more personality here in seeing peopleās real names, and thereās some responsibility too to behave yourself as a proper adult online. Iāve seen the opposite more than a few times here tooā¦
2: The wealth and disposable income gap is certainly a factor. I mean one thing is the difference between Europe and the US which canāt be helped. Thatās unless we make a āweinberserker.euā board. I respect there are people with higher income or inheritance than me and I respect it even more when they share IRL.
3: The lack of attraction; I think some of you have already said that itās impossible to get in here and feel seen if you also start in the ābasicā regarding wines. Many wines donāt make us turn heads after a while for a variety of reasons, and I think perhaps a board like this is most helpful when youāve gained a bit of confidence in terms of what you like and collect so that instead of searching for validation in here, search for info or likeminded friends. If I have to be rude then Iād also say that the āwhatās your favorite guitar soloā or āfavorite phish songā posts on the asylum donāt attract us. But there has to be space for everything.
4: The bickering and dunking are certainly things that I wish not to see here, and itās maybe the worst part ā maybe a ākarma systemā like they use Reddit is a good idea? You can go back and forward how many times you want about what the right taste markers for a PM, or the pricing of burgundy, but donāt ever speak down on what other people like to pour whether itās Napa cab or mousy pineau dāaunis. Skip it if you donāt like it. This website scrolls up and down - itās a digital wonder.
5: Please make offlines! It moved my passion for this hobby a lot to meet berserkers. Make it new member-friendly.
Then just as a partial reply.
@Robert_Dentice youāve managed to do something great with your social media use and presence in this scene which you selflessly aid and live in. Amazing. I think many young enthusiasts look to you, but I also wonder if they want to be part of this kind of community(WB). I respect your giving back to the community so much.
Finally a short appreciation list for people whose way of engaging and speaking with each other I enjoy. Gonna do without a tag as maybe not everyone cares to get drawn in.
Lasse, Alfert, Otto, Rahsaan, Russell Faulkner, Maciej, Melvin Yeo, Mikael OB, Phil Trottier, Michael Chang, Mariano, William Kelley, Frank Murray, Illka and many many more that Iām forgetting right now
One interesting thing to me (and a profitable one, to some degree) has been the dramatic (albeit slightly fading) interest in high end bourbon. Youāll have a lot of people who wouldnāt even think about spending $50 for a bottle of wine paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for high end bourbon. Iām not entirely sure where this came from, but it made a $20 bourbon in Weller 12 into a $300 bourbon (more like $150 now).
People of all ages, but especially younger people are also drinking less now, including me.
Iām not entirely sure what the solution is, but perhaps focusing more on exciting lower priced wines would help.
