RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

Sean_Connor · February 17, 2012, 2:46pm

Article by Will Lyons in the Wall Street Journal noting the events.

JonoBeagle · February 17, 2012, 2:50pm

Yes, but that is because I am a “wine geek”. As I have said, the issue is about faking and a general malaise with auction houses… I took advantage in the wines I bought based on the information that I knew.

Clearly the Mahler-Basse family were happy to deal with Spectrum/Vanquish, and their were other clearly genuine bottles their as well. Hell, LVMH donated bottles to them as well… If we want to go into double standards I could name lots of examples.

I mean, we can stop beating around the bush and get to the issue, or we can knit-pick…

I do not intend to sell my Palmers but drink them, I don’t go to auctions to buy for my business, I never have and I never will. I made a conscious decision based on my knowledge. Would this all have been OK if it had been Sotheby’s?? Or Zachy’s?? No, but I still would have bought those Palmers need on the same information. That is my point here… Fakes are fakes, good provenance is good provenance, why should I be held to account.

My parents have dealt with auction houses for decades and my mother currently consults for one… If you want to know negligence and deceat, I could give millions of examples, even from the big houses… Do we still buy from them? Yes!

What we need to get to is how to break the clubby atmosphere and root out fakes, not knit-pick over whether a deal is ethical or not. I don’t see how my comments re these things is contradictory.

If anything I was able to make my decision because I have access to privileged information. It makes my decision making easier… Genuine people get duped, and I have some grizzly stories about a few incidents; hell my parents have been duped from time to time, and by well known people. Including Sotheby’s, Christies, Bonhams, I could go on…

\

I am here: Google Maps

Tom_Mann · February 17, 2012, 3:22pm

I was under the impression that Gouges was one of the first as well, in 1934 (?)…

Lewis_Dawson · February 17, 2012, 3:23pm

So the older bottles of DRC are all merchant-bottled?

Nick_Gangas · February 17, 2012, 3:44pm

Jono,

Kind of some long posts here. As far as people criticizing you for buying those Palmers, screw em. The auction market is a large and critical part of the market and if you’re looking for older vintages of fine wine you cannot ignore them. There is also no evidence that they are any more risky than the retail market. This is not to absolve auction houses from doing their due diligence but truth be known every major house as had an issue here. My belief ? I will get cleaned up when the Feds take it seriously and someone goes to jail.

k_s_h_i_n · February 17, 2012, 4:13pm

There was a Methuselah of the 90 Romanee Conti. Let’s say you are in the market for such a wine and know that this is an authentic bottle and of the sake of argument has no reserve. Would you not buy the wine at $10K based on the principle? Also I assume you will apply the sample principle to all other auction houses. It is rough out there but it isn’t impossible to navigate. I have voiced my concerns in the past and sometimes my take was not kindly received. It isn’t really all that black and white if you are in the market.

NickWittman · February 17, 2012, 4:57pm

Good article! Very unfortunate that empty bottles are sold so openly on eBay. Remember having a customer call me with a very rare empty bottle of d’Yquem asking if it had any value? Remember saying, only to a counterfeiter! Suggested breaking it, or putting it up on the mantle. Some empty bottles currently listed on ebay, and there were quite a few more . . .

1945 Vogue Bonnes Mares - $49
1982 Chateau Lafite Rothschild - $11
1982 Chateau Mouton Rothschild - $10
2007 Screaming Eagle Cabernet Sauvignon - $10
2007 DRC Romanee Conti - $10 (for the record # 00660)

Top-rated seller, droog7777 (808 sales) - 100% positive feedback. Denver, Co. is selling quite a few. His comments on the Mouton follow (and based on the pic of the bottle, a cork is included)!

Up for sale here is an empty bottle of Chateau Mouton Rothschild from the year 1982.
It does have sediment in the bottle and the cork is weathered although intact.
I am not going to clean this bottle in any way because I do not want to risk damaging it.
I have not removed the cork because I do not want to risk damaging it.
If this is an issue for you then please do not bid and then leave me negative feedback stating that the bottle was dirty.
I have placed a small sticker with a number on the bottle to help with my personal inventory. This sticker in no way harms the bottle.
If you are really interested in seeing the cork I will do my best to remove it and send you a photo of it.
Please be sure to check out my list of other auctions as I have many more Vintage Wine Bottles up for sale.
I ship within 2 days of receiving cleared payment.
The bottle will be shipped in a professional wine shipping box so it will not be damaged.
I will gladly ship to anywhere in the world.
I will gladly combine shipping if you purchase multiple bottles.
Please feel free to ask me any questions.
Please note that the shipping price listed also covers handling and all things associated with shipping these bottles including but not limited to bubble wrap, packing peanuts, the box…etc.
Payment is due within 3 days of auction ending.
I do accept returns, but please note that you are responsible for the return shipping
Thank you and Good Luck!!!

AAgrawal · February 17, 2012, 6:19pm

New developments:

The story lives on!

Robert_Pollard-Smith · February 17, 2012, 6:56pm

Nick_Ryan · February 17, 2012, 7:23pm

Anthony_Hall · February 17, 2012, 8:44pm

In this thread we have had plenty of money, a lot of love (perhaps still money), the wine is surely a drug but where for the films sake is the sex ?

Who will play Don ?

Which of the posters will get a part and who will play them ?

Which posters will provide the sexual tension ?

I have only met one poster in real life and can only wait to see which actors you suggest.

paul_hanna · February 18, 2012, 9:20am

Obviously the only actor that could play me would be Brad Pitt…

Don_Cornwell · February 18, 2012, 9:28am

I’d sure like to see this practice stopped. Ebay sure ought to have better sense than to allow the sale of these bottles. I can see one hell of a lawsuit being filed against Ebay (and the relevant sellers) when say a 1945 Vogue gets refilled with counterfeit wine and sold. I also suspect that the sale of empty wine bottles containing alcohol labels might violate either BATF regulations or various state statutes, but I haven’t checked. I’d really like to see the California ABC and the Wine Institute weigh in on this with Ebay and put a stop to it.

Tom_Reddick · February 18, 2012, 12:30pm

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Lewis_Dawson · February 18, 2012, 1:41pm

Tom, that is one way to look at it. There is another: I have limits for who I will not do business with. I don’t have the benefit of all the inside scoop on this Spectrum deal, so I have to make judgements from what I have. And given that, Spectrum at the moment is well beyond my personal limit. YMMV.

Peter_Chiu · February 18, 2012, 2:56pm

Tom Reddick:

JonoBeagle:

I think you would also be surprised at how many in the trade dont.

I was at a dinner with a number of sommeliers, and trade people on the Monday before. Of all 20-30 people not one, knew of the auction or the issues. Those who do look are those “wine geeks” in the trade, and they are a minority, and we know them because we are one of them, so it blurs our vision.

The same is true down my way. I was at a dinner earlier this week with some regarded figures in the trade, and in a lull in the conversation I mentioned the Spectrum auction. Noone had been following it or knew of it. There really isn’t much point unless one is a rep for or collector of the most targeted Domaines for counterfeiting.

As for the notion that Jono or Kevin, or anyone, should be taken to task for attending Spectrum auctions or dinners- or that they should be given “advice” on how to handle any purchases, that is just flat out stupid, and more than a little presumptuous.

Sorry- this is one where I see no grey area. There is plently of legitimate wine out there, and there is no reason any of us should ignore that and miss out on good opportunities. If I were a buyer right now, I would be dashing to the starting line to get a chance at wines I was comfortable with at lower prices until all this mess gets resolved. To me it is no different than the massive buying I was doing in the wake of the 2008 crisis.

Anyone playing in the very high end game who does his homework comes to auction an informed buyer. Yes, more pressure should be applied to the auction houses (which has already been happening at the established houses long before this auction courtesy of market forces)- but even then older wine is a dangerous game for the uninformed who come at it with lots of money and no research- just as is the case with coins, stamps, vintage autos etc. etc. etc. I am certainly not going to let that small sliver of the market disrupt almost 2 decades of successful buying and selling at auction by making an ever growing list of people I should never do business with again.

This new line of accusation is going down a very slippery slope IMNSHO.

As for the notion that Jono or Kevin, or anyone, should be taken to task for attending Spectrum auctions or dinners- or that they should be given “advice” on how to handle any purchases, that is just flat out stupid, and more than a little presumptuous.

Tom …I have no dog in this flight. You have your good reasons to say your opinions which I happen to agree because you are in the trade and you know what you are doing .

That being said…please allow me to ask you a polite question.

Why you mentioned Kevin in the above coded message as an example ?

I asked because I had an extensive and heated duscussion regarding the pro and con with Kevin some years ago ( in the Other-Board ) regarding his position of someone in the trade ( or wine critic ) of attending mega wine-tasting-dinners. [pillow-fight.gif]

Kevin…I mean no harm just …

Tom_Reddick · February 19, 2012, 1:24am

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Tom_Reddick · February 19, 2012, 1:28am

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Berry_Crawford · February 19, 2012, 8:59am

I think technically DRC commerially bottled some of their own wine starting in mid/late 19th century. So perhaps they can be considered the first. I beleive it is d’Angerville who was the first to sell wine entirely outside the negociant system. He was the main antagonist against the practices of the negociants in the late 20s and early 30s and was blackballed. I think Gouges was soon the follow. I don’t remember reading about Ponsot being part of these events but its certainly possible.

Kelly_Walker · February 19, 2012, 9:14pm

Berry Crawford:

Tom Mann:

Lewis Dawson:

BTW, I’m really surprised by the statement that Ponsot was “the first producer in Burgundy (1934) to estate bottle his wines.” Could this be correct?

I was under the impression that Gouges was one of the first as well, in 1934 (?)…

I think technically DRC commerially bottled some of their own wine starting in mid/late 19th century. So perhaps they can be considered the first. I beleive it is d’Angerville who was the first to sell wine entirely outside the negociant system. He was the main antagonist against the practices of the negociants in the late 20s and early 30s and was blackballed. I think Gouges was soon the follow. I don’t remember reading about Ponsot being part of these events but its certainly possible.

In an interview with Charles Rousseau a couple years ago he stated that Rousseau was one of the first non-negoce producers to bottle and sell their wine directly to customers, primarily Paris restaurants.