In my experience it depends - I agree that in the long(est) run the Rb - generally, not only at H-N - has more potential … so when comparing Rb and RSV after 30+ years usually has more to give, but at 10, 15, 20 years the perfume, fragance and complexity of a RSV often wins. We had a comparative tasting some years ago where this was obvious, best (younger) wine was RSV Cathiard and Confuron, best middle aged were Rb Jean Gros and H-N RSV … and best old was Rb 1964 (neg.) - though no DRC or Leroy incl.
Friends,
i thank William for his comments but in my experience I thought that chez HUDELOT the R-St-V had the edge. Of course I never waited 20 years to compare so it may well be that in the long run RICHEBOURG is the winner. Concerning LEROY : I had both the RICHEB and the R-St-V from 88,89,90,91,92 and 93 and I fully agree that the R-St-V is the greater wine of the two. In any case : it was always my favorite. In the 92 vintage however I thought that chez Leroy THE BEAUMONTS was the best of the three. Feel free to disagree. By the way: I do drink villages and had splendid experiences with a number of Vosnes form Arnoux, G Noellat, HUDELOT-NOELLAT and Millot. And the CHAMBOLLLEs from HUDELOT-BAILLET (vieilles vignes), Arnoux, Roumier and Hudelot-Noellat
SINCERLY JOHAN
Thanks again …Johan.
So I was half-right ( or half-wrong ) in that you seldom drink village wine …NOW…and …ALSO …sometimes 1er cru is equal or better ( than a g-cru ).
****In any case : it was always my favorite. In the 92 vintage however I thought that chez Leroy THE BEAUMONTS was the best of the three. Feel free to disagree. ***
May I take a guess ( regarding your comments of above) : mostly like, because of the general character of the vintage year 1992 was speaking loud and clear.
FYI… I always post here that my favorite LT is from vintage 1994. It never failed on me as she is always smiling for the whole event and keeping whispering : my dear Peter - how you are ? Unlike the 1191, 1993 or 1995, it sometimes closed down completely and became mute …after popping the cork 30 to 35 minutes.
My suggestion of matching tastings is not my idea. I was just repeating the idea from Coates ( Cote d’Or - page 45 ) : The art of good living in that the village wine will create the impression of a more-grander for the Chambertin.
In my experience it depends - I agree that in the long(est) run the Rb - generally, not only at H-N - has more potential … so when comparing Rb and RSV after 30+ years usually has more to give, but at 10, 15, 20 years the perfume, fragance and complexity of a RSV often wins. We had a comparative tasting some years ago where this was obvious, best (younger) wine was RSV Cathiard and Confuron, best middle aged were Rb Jean Gros and H-N RSV … and best old was Rb 1964 (neg.) - though no DRC or Leroy incl.
Top
Thanks for the wonderful TNs.
Would that be nice if DRC also produced a Musigny ?
1 Like
I think in particular what Leroy and H-N have achieved in their RSV has greatly elevated the status of the wine. Then there’s the simple question of taste. I drank both H-N wines from the 90’s within a short space of time, and while both were spectacular the absolutely ethereal nose of the RSV made the whole table gasp.
Friends,
in a hurry I almost forget to mention the one single VILLAGES that very nearly changed my life and got me hooked on Burgundy. In 84 I met Daniel Bocquenet and he offered me his NUITS-St-GEORGEs aux Saint Julien. A village from a lieux-dit next to the cemetery in Nuits that was on par with most premier crus and sometimes even better than that. Bocquent has now retired but his Nuits was always a superb wine. Hardly known to the public and the same thing goes for the vigneron himself. An undervalued winemaker that deserved much better. He ought to have been there together with the CHEVILLONS and the GOUGES. In the late ssebenties and eighties he even outbettered GOUGES. To Daniel : CHEERS!
SINCERELY JOHAN
1 Like
Magnificently stated.
I was having a hard time answering the original thread because I think what you have said Peter is the much better approach to the question.
More broadly, I am confused how a discussion of the greatest wines of Vosne-Romanee includes H-N, but I gave up with them in the 2002 vintage, so maybe things have changed.
I’d be confused if a discussion of the greatest wines of vosne didn’t include Hudelot Noellat.
1 Like
Good evening David and Michael,
To start off- apologies if my comment came off as snarky. I was just having a quick read during a quick lunch break and tonight in a more relaxed setting I can see where my comment might have seemed flippant.
For my part, all of my H-N experience (somewhat limited) comes from 1991-2002. It was a different time then- a time when DRC and Leroy were both very easy to obtain and where, aside from Leroy which was already starting to climb dramatically in price for the grand crus, the DRC RSV and Richebourg were similarly priced to the competition. And so it was easier to be a lot more picky and dismiss wines that in modern times- with a new pricing structure, limited availability and more Domaines bringing their A game- are relatively more appealing than they might have been 20 years ago.
I never found the H-N wines to be bad- far from it. If I had one general beef it was that the wines were sometimes a bit muddled- certainly at the middle and lower end- and lacking in detail as compared to the DRC and Leroy versions of similar age. JJ Confuron was another in that category but for a different reason- lovely detailed wine, but too much oak for my taste.
In any event, in an era when my tasting group was drinking DRC and Leroy- among others- on a regular basis, it was just hard to get too excited about H-N, Confuron or Arnoux. All 3 made good wines, but second tier in my book- and with the climate at the time it was easy to give them a miss after a handful of performances that just could not compare to DRC and Leroy.
Sorry Tom,
the 91 Hudelot-Noerllat R-St-v and the Richeb were equals to the ones made by LEROY and outclassed DRC. I had sufficient bottles of all three. Of course it was trendy to name DRC and LeroY superior. Lalou herself once expressed doubts concerning her RICHEBOURG versus the R-St-V… I forgot the exact words… at such a price it shuld be great AND “wash your car” (A. MEADOWS).
SINCERELY JOHAN
1 Like
At Chambolle village level, the HN is very good and pleasant but really consistently inferior to Barthod, Roumier, Mugnier in different ways… no competition in my mind (over period 2009-2012, I stopped buying them for this reason). Of course, Roumier and Mugnier are far more expensive.
HN NSG is his best village (but nowhere near MG both from bas de combe) and I also prefer his Vosne (but also stopped buying). Also lost ability to buy Suchots en primeur which is excellent.
Can’t comment on HN/DRC/Leroy debate…at RSV/Riche level.
Agree, H-N RSV 91 was great and on par with Rb Jean Gros 1990
A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k. That’s like saying there’s no point in discussing richebourg because Henri Jayer is the best.
DRC is obviously still making great wines from these vineyards, and their RSV has greatly improved over the last decade or so.
I believe that arnoux-lachaux is one of the most rapidly improving producers in burgundy although it’s also rapidly increased in price. Their rsv is probably similar in price to drc now, if not more.
I think Hudelot is probably a step below drc but still a fantastic wine which is consistently good from vintage to vintage.
Here are official ( and normal ) released priced in Quebec, Canada for Leroy top reds for vintage 1995 : Musigny CA $646.50 same for Chambertin; Richebourg at CA $597 and same for RStV. In other words, her Chambertin and Musigny were the most expensive and was 10% higher than Richebourg and RStV.
Similar situation for vintage 1994 Chambertin and Musigny were at CA $515…
**A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k.
Why not as there is no harm. For example …when I look back at my wine life …I would say those were the good old days.
Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting…to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese ![[smileyvault-ban.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/426cc97ad8dd530c8304b0918ca75ff841d4d950.gif "[smileyvault-ban.gif]")
)
According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151.
It’s fine to discuss but if the wines aren’t available to drink, to purchase then there’s not much basis for comparison.
Michael …hmmm - yes it is fine with me also.
How about to look it from this point : human being needs to learn ( and to better themselves ) from past history, it is part of life - no ?
To have a better understand - here are price for DRC from vintage 1995 : RStV CA$323; Richebourg CA$388; LA CA$695 and RC CA$1695.
I won’t be replying. Sorry I wasted my time posting on this topic. I should have known better.
Peter Chiu said :
(((((… Talking about price vs quality of a burgundy wine - Meursalt - Perrieres. It is getting…to a point of : insanity and most like due to the Chinese factor ( even tough I am Chinese ) According for Wine-searcher here are average prices : Coche-Dury CA$3427; Roulot CA$1859; Lafon CA$616; PYCM CA$473; and Bouchard CA$151. ))))))
Michael said :
****A little pointless to discuss Leroy, are they even releasing new vintages? the most recent prior vintages are 6-10k. ****
Michael also said :
It’s fine to discuss but if the wines aren’t available to drink, to purchase then there’s not much basis for comparison.
Hi Michael… are you sure ? There will always be Leroy wines to be purchased and to be drunken …but maybe not for many.
Leroy knows it and their Agents - who receives their yearly allocation - know it. They will continue to do so…until they market themselves out to the maximum level which the market could bear; or to more insane level - according to some experienced burgundy lovers.
I am not trying to start an argument with you. Why ? According to Taoism : Kind people do not argue. People argue are not kind; and I am a firm believer in Taosim.