Richebourg used to outshine Romanée-St-Vivant. Is that really changing?

[Howard_Cooper]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational “dégustation” in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I have had the Hudelot-Noellat Richebourg and Romanee St. Vivant next to each other a couple of times and could not detect a difference in quality. A different in style and in flavors, yes, a difference in quality, no.

[Howard_Cooper]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS…

SINCERELY JOHAN

It makes no sense to judge a vineyard’s potential by its lesser producers. I could make a pretty nasty wine with Romanee Conti grapes with little effort.

Add Dujac, Leroy and Trapet to Rousseau.

What Mark says makes sense. In fact, if you wanted to judge what is the best terroir, wouldn’t you just taste the best wine from each appellation? Otherwise, aren’t you criticizing terroir based on poor farming, winemaking, younger vines, etc.?

[David_Bu3ker]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

[JBrochu]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

[joejolesch]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

This topic being completely out of my wheelhouse, I can add nothing more…but well played, sir…well played.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Friends,

Of course it is wrong to judge a wine based on the performance of its lesser producers. But then again, Romanee Conti could never have become that famous if it were owned by different producers. Same goes for LA TACHE and LA ROMANEE. As an aside : ROMANEE was not considered a unique wine when made by CLOS FRANTIn and even BOUCHARD. The fact that in spite of having several owners RICHEBOURG is that renowned is because its producers hardly put a foot wrong. GENERALLY SPEAKING that is…This cannot be stated of R-St-V where you have different owners not up there with the very best…(had the 2005 from MUGNERET recently…A Wash out…)
SINCERELY JOHAN

[Peter_Chiu]

Dear A SONGEUR,

CHAMBERTIN? The one made by ROUSSEAU? Yes. For the rest : too many mediocre Chambertins : try the one made by CAMUS…

SINCERELY JOHAN

Dear Johan : hmmm - interesting comments ! Sadly I do not have any experience with Chambertins produced by Campus.

So if I understand you correctly, a Chambertin made by Rousseau is a yes and that a Chambertins made by Campus is : mediocre.

So if Rousseau made a Richerbourg, it would be a yes for you and if a RStV is made by Campus, it would be a : mediocre. I am confuse

What is the main purpose of your thread ?

Logically speak : a world of born is not a world of made.

What I mean is if we are going to have a friendly discussion among the site of Richebourg vs the the site of RStV and or with other g-cru, for example : La Romanee, Musigny without mentioning the skill of a underwhelm producer, then we will have a meaningful discussion.




*It makes no sense to judge a vineyard’s potential by its lesser producers. I could make a pretty nasty wine with Romanee Conti grapes with little effort.
Add Dujac, Leroy and Trapet to Rousseau.

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Dear Peter,

My main intention is to start an interesting discussion among BURGUNDY fans. The Richebourg versus R-St-v topic seems intersting to me. The question is : is there a difference because of terroir or because of mediocre producers versus great ones. And indeed :: if ROUSSEAU produced a RICHEBOURG it would surprise me if it turned out to be mediocre. Camus on the other hand would equally surprise me if his version turned out top…
Feel fee to disagree…
SINCERELY JOHAN

[MChang]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO. DRC RSV is my largest holding from drc because I like the style, although I do have a lot of richebourg as well.

[David_Bu3ker]

The OP and RTP Latham Richard need to be locked in a steel cage match.

X = la Romanee / Richebourg * (Musigny + Romanee St. Vivant)

You forgot the Veroilles target, and we need a correction factor for the portion of Musigny planted to white. Please revise and resubmit before the end of the semester.

[Peter_Chiu]

Dear Peter,

My main intention is to start an interesting discussion among BURGUNDY fans. The Richebourg versus R-St-v topic seems intersting to me. The question is : is there a difference because of terroir or because of mediocre producers versus great ones. And indeed :: if ROUSSEAU produced a RICHEBOURG it would surprise me if it turned out to be mediocre. Camus on the other hand would equally surprise me if his version turned out top…
Feel fee to disagree…
SINCERELY JOHAN

Johan…thanks for the nice reply.

I noticed that you have lots, and lots of experience with the wines which I admired most : Burgundy. Most posters in this Board were posters in the ParkerB before. I noticed that you just joint us for a year now and you have re-visited some old threads here and your opinions and described of your experiences are of very valued and interesting to me, personally of course.

Here is my personal view for enjoyment of a red bottle of burgundy wine : (1) your preferred producers due to their styles of elevage; (2) your preferred producers for your prefer vineyards ( or AC ); (3) your preferred produces who styles go well with the general character of a particular vintage year.

Those are the basic rules - in my view.

Now to follow the above a truly burgundy lover, beside he needs to have he knowledge, then experience …plus : a right approach.

What is the right approach ? What is the definition of a great glass of burgundy wine of wine in front of me ? Its complexity. The standard of complexity should not be arbitrary but the signs should be there. In other words, I will goes back again and again…to check, to sniff and to swirl. Do we have to pay more to have these kind of experiences ? Yes most of the time and no sometimes. It depends…

For your planned tasting of RStV vs Richebourg by H-N…hopefully the wines were from the same vintage year. If possible how about put along side a Vose-1er cru by H-N of the same vintage year ?

[Peter_Chiu]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO. DRC RSV is my largest holding from drc because I like the style, although I do have a lot of richebourg as well.

Yes - Michael : lots of improvement by DRC in VStV…and charges you accordingly.

[alan_weinberg]

To answer your original question I think that it is true but only for DRC. That has to do with improvements in farming in the vineyard by drc moreso than anything else, IMO.

I think it had to do more w exclusion of one parcel of the RSV that was somewhat green.

[William_Kelley]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational “dégustation” in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I’d be amazed if the Richebourg didn’t win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

[alan_weinberg]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational “dégustation” in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I’d be amazed if the Richebourg didn’t win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

at H-N only or elsewhere also?

[A_Songeur]

The RSV HN 91 was amazing…never had a Richebourg HN… Good luck! Should be great…

[Gaudissabois_Johan]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply. The reason I only joined a year ago was because before I had never heard of this exciting forum. It was ever so thrilling to renew old threads. I must admit this is great fun to me. Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. Even Bill Nanson and William Kelly join in from time to time which is truly amazing. If WINE ADVOCATE gave William more space to write on Burgundy I would subscribe.
SINCERELY JOHAN

[William_Kelley]

Friends, Next week I am into a sensational “dégustation” in which RSv is being thrown in alongside RICHEBOURG. Winemaker : HUDELOT-NOELLAT where i always admired both giving the nod usually to the sensational RSV. The 91 is one of my greatest Burgundies ever.

SINCERELY JOHAN

I’d be amazed if the Richebourg didn’t win. I have discussed this with Charles van Canneyt a number of times, and his opinion is that, with time, the Richebourg always turns out to be the better of the two. My experience has been the same.

at H-N only or elsewhere also?

Only at Hudelot-Noëllat.

When I look at the three places where I taste both appellations from the same producer (the only meaningful comparison), I’d say that Richebourg has the edge at Hudelot-Noëllat, the Saint-Vivant has the edge chez Leroy, and at DRC, they’re quite evenly matched these days, with sometimes one, sometimes the other seeming the more promising.

[Peter_Chiu]

Chez DRC …Richebourg is Sophia and RStV is Gina.

Complexity in richness vs complexity in delicacy(?-no?).

[Peter_Chiu]

Dear Peter,

Thanks for your reply. The reason I only joined a year ago was because before I had never heard of this exciting forum. It was ever so thrilling to renew old threads. I must admit this is great fun to me. Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. Even Bill Nanson and William Kelly join in from time to time which is truly amazing. If WINE ADVOCATE gave William more space to write on Burgundy I would subscribe.
SINCERELY JOHAN

Merci…Johan.

****Exchanging views with lots of connoisseurs on the great wines of Burgundy. ****

Here is what Krama said regarding The Notion of Connoisseur-ship : a truly connoisseur must yield freely to the fact that greatness is not just the province of a few time-honored plots of landing in Burgundy.

By looking your posts here, it looks like you never drunk a village wine ?

Most likely I am wrong…because …you did not post your experiences about them.

If you like Chambertin by Rousseau, try to do a matching tasting of Damoy Chambertin and his Clos Tamisot; and also the same matching tasting of Rousseau Chamberitn and his village Gevrey !