have you watched Behind the Curve?
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I canāt speak for the US crew but in the UK if you had a new merchant, and there are some, that comes up listing 5-10% below market I would be red flagging that. Not to say itās an immediately fraudulent, as you can basically dropship from liv-ex b2b trades for a small profit (e.g. seckford does this) but it seems like a lot of work for Ā£15 profit (real example based on some 2015 Hermitage la Chapelle I bought earlier this year). Itās now tbey are below market price but it makes me worry about their viability.
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Sure, but itās not like the prices we are seeing are below UK in-bond prices on W-S (at least for the wines that I have checked). When people here are talking about the prices being low, that seems to be comparing to US retailers and other gray market importers. Not exactly a low bar to beat.
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I am not denying that PC was a Ponzi scheme. At this late date, that would be like denying that the sky was blue. But, no, I did not PERFECTLY describe a Ponzi scheme. True Ponzi schemes do not have one corner of the investment scheme that works well and normally and another corner where they bring in money without investing it, using some to pay an interest rate. Nor do Ponzi schemes always develop from honest investment businesses. Look up, for instance, Carlo Ponzi. They are schemes, not overleveraged business gone out of control. In any case, my point was to argue that numbers of people who bought from them successfully were, until a certain point, rational to argue that they were operating honestly. Before the 05 futuresāalthough things were going onāunless one had real information, it was not really rational to argue otherwise, given the evidence. After that, it become more and more rational, but in the face of conflicting evidence people have conflicting views.
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To be clear Iāve never once claimed theyāre a fraudulent business model etc. The only thing I would flag is that some of those market low prices may be capital returns for investors but thatās neither here nor there
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iām not clear what point youāre trying to make because itās rather vague.
PC was - for many, many years - selling wine which they had not purchased. When pushed sufficiently, they then used new sales revenues to make good on those prior sales. And often did so at significant losses. To describe this merely as āoverleveragedā is a version of sociopathy.
During that time period, experts came on here and raised red flags and were typically painted as sour grapes, etc. And simultaneously, many on here speculated they had special sources, had figured out unique financial models, and so many more such theories. Anyone arguing they were fine wasnāt being rational, they were opining on something they knew nothing about. The thread makes that clear. You can see it play out in real time over the course of years.
That your personal experience resulted in positive outcomes does nothing to undermine these facts. Just that you were in/out early enough in the scheme to not lose your bag.
Nor does the fact that they may have actually had some stock of wines that they paid for before they sold.
My biggest question about you, though, is . . . are you the son of Marcel Lapierre? 'Cause that would be cool.
Thanks for coming on and fielding all these challenging questions. Iām looking forward to getting the wines I ordered in due course, and I wish you well with your business.
Iād encourage those who start receiving wines from Vint to loop into the thread.
Itās unsurprising you donāt understand what I am trying to argue since you do not answer my points, merely respond to them. Letās go back to Nealās original objection. His point was that, prior to a certain date, there was good evidence that PC was a reliable business. Note the specification āprior to a certain point.ā He stated this, I take it, to note that accusations against Vint had no real evidence and that the PC analogy fails until after a certain point. It is one thing to have accused them of being a Ponzi scheme in 2004 when, unless you had special information, you really had no evidence, another thing to have been right about them after 2010, when it became increasingly clear. You do not answer Neal, you only bring up the example of bad defenses from a later date. Itās not enough to have turned out to be right. You have to have been right for the right reasons. If you donāt see that distinction, and thus the justice of what Neal was saying, then we will just go around in circles.
sure. on this we can easily agree.
but youāre conveniently ignoring that āa certain dateā spans many years for different people. and what you describe as evidence of reliability to support this argument is merely continued (but sporadic and delayed) delivery of stock. Flying red flags arenāt evidence.
and if itās not clear, this has NOTHING to do with Vint - this is a tangent to that business. However, itās not unreasonable to question certain business practices that seem ā¦ novel upon cursory inspection.
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Premier Cru was started in 1980, and until 1994, was a legit business according to court records. From 1995-2015, it was a Ponzi scheme, as admitted by owner and founder, John Fox.
There is a far greater period of Ponzi scheme than legit wine retailing.
Sorry this thread is getting derail Adam, Iām hoping this post puts a pin in that.
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āAt a certain date,ā refers to when the evidence mounts up. Different people having different views at different times only shows that evidence was variable for much of that period. Ianās post makes clear that the practices that brought PC down started in 1994. What he ignores is that, between 94 and say 06 or 07, the amount of wine that he sold without ever buying it or contracting to do so was much less than it was at later dates. I expect that there were numbers of peopleāmaybe even the majority of its customersāwho bought wine between 94 and say 06 or 07 that duly received their wine. This was not true of Bernie Madoff or Carlo Ponzi. Unless all weāre arguing about at what date what they were doing became clear for all to see, Iām not sure what all this is about.
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Iām not sure what this is all about either. But I do know that itās for sure way off topic for this thread.
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Iām ignoring nothing. You are ASSUMING that those wines got delivered. I think you are wading into incredibly dangerous waters here as well. This was a $70 million Ponzi scheme, maybe not the size off Madoff, but one that to this day still has had a chilling effect on how people buy wine in America. You may have gotten out, but I know entirely too many people who didnāt, and most of it was not chump change either.
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Any updates from those who purchased from Vint?
Anyone see their purchased wine yet?
As an aside, I looked at a few pages of their CdP offerings and many of those wines are well below market (almost all of the Clos des Papes are well below the $100/btl or more typically seen for pretty much any vintage at this point)
They pop up at the top of the stack on WS with some regularity
This may be covered upstream, but are all of their offerings 6-pack lots? Canāt ever buy 3s?
I think there are a couple people in this thread who are supposed to take delivery in the next couple weeks, so hopefully theyāll confirm receipt.
Retailers should offer this feature. Itās an easy one.
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It is one of the filtersā¦ eg 1, 3, 6, 12, etc. though mostly I find 6-12 for the stuff Iām looking at seriously.
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Alas, no. That would be very cool indeed. Hoping I will get priority for a tasting appointment someday though!
Appreciate the well wishes, Chris - we fully understand the need to earn trust and will work hard to do so.
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