Thank you, Don. And time, Maureen, and I get it.
Based on European pricing, perhaps, but in the U.S. the Angerville Ducs goes for over $200 per bottle, particularly in vintages such as 05, 09, 10, 12, and Iâm sure 15. And Iâve only been able to find the Barthod Cras in such vintages, if any all, at about $175â and the Hubert Lignier MSD V.V. And Clair CSJ about the same.
Just bought a 6-pack of '99 Tollot Beaut Corton Bressandes, broke a 2-months moratorium. This thread is evil!
They taste good and are relatively reasonably priced compared with their peers.
I was thinking the same thing about the Clos du Ducs. If we want to go by pricing in Europe (and include people with allocations from wineries and prices in restaurants), we can include Coche, Raveneau Grand Crus and Mugneret-Gibourg grand crus. The list becomes meaningless.
I would disagree with this. You can buy most of the wines on Donâs list on allocation with merchants in the UK at or around Donâs price point - I would agree that Angerville Ducs is now beyond the $125 price point for the 2015 vintage. That being said, I buy Barthod Cras every year and itâs miles away in price terms from Raveneau and MG grand crus.
Regardless of what price you can buy them at, the list is the exact opposite of a list of âsleepers.â It is a list of among the most desirable and sought-after wines in every vintage.
Of course, all are welcome to post whatever they wish, but dâAngerville Clos de Ducs, Jadots Clos St. Jacques, Barthod Cras and the like are precisely the wines that I attempted to exclude by the remarks in my opening post. Those wines and their quality have been widely known for many years. The intent is for posters to identify red Burgundies which they believe are noteworthy (and ideally explain why), but are under the radar. Otherwise, this becomes just another thread with lists of postersâ favorite wines. I reiterate that some information about the wines would be helpful so that readers can better assess whether they want to seek out the wines and try them.
Edited for typo.
Well, I paid a bit over 100 euros for Raveneau Grand Crus at the Hostellerie des Clos last summer so that fits. And, I have paid about 100 euros for Coche Meursault at a restaurant in Pommard. And, if you are on the allocation lists at MG or Bachelet or a number of other hot places, you can buy these grand crus rather reasonably. And, I looked up 2014 Clos du Ducs on wine searcher and found:
So, one can find 2014 Ducster in Europe for $125 but the cheapest in the U.S. Is $180. One may find a Coche on a restaurant wine list in some country somewhere for $100. If I had a time machine I could go back to when the Rousseau Chambertin was $125 in retail stores in the U.S. If I was one of the lucky bastards who drive up to the domaines each year and fill up their RVâs with their allocations of Mugneret-Gibourg, Hubert Lignier, Dujac, etc. with grand crus under $125, I could Include them all on this list. But the wines ainât sleepers, and at least in the U.S. they are not close to $125.
Maybe we need a separate U.S. Edition of this thread.
Keep cool. The days when you could buy top Burgundy to reasonable prices at wine shops and Restaurants in Europe are gone as well. Maybe the wines are a tad cheaper than in the US but not that much.
I think the best deals can be made in areas such as Marsannay, Rully, Givry etc. And In Germany (Spätburgunder). Many young German vintners educated in Burgundy Domains produce fine Pinots in their own vineyards these days.
Salil Benegal shot me an e-mail saying that he was surprised that I did not include Domaine Cheriseyâs Blagny Rouge 1er cru Genelotte in my list of sleepers. I replied that I wasnât sure that many would âgetâ that wine. Salilâs astute reply was âIâd argue thatâs all the more reason for it to be a sleeper - itâs a wine thatâs very easy to overlook because itâs stylistically not what people typically expect when they look for Burgundy, so therefore gets undervalued by the majority of the Burg community.â Again, this wine comes from old vines. It is very pale red in color, pretty much strawberry in its fruit profile, earthy/stony, lithe and willowy. About 11% ABV. The prettiest red Burgundy that I know. About $55. As former board member Tom Blach used to say here âBlagny rouge is for true Burgundy lovers.â Too bad Tom doesnât post here any more.
I picked up a couple bottles of Philippe Colin Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Morgeot Rouge for $29; figured it was worth a shot per CT; any favorite Chassagne reds?
Lots of good ones, the best to my palate, and both are sleepers, are Ramonetâs 1er cru Clos de la Boudriotte (the equivalent of top drawer Volnay 1er cru) and Jean-Marc Pillotâs 1er cru Clos St. Jean VV mentioned above.
Yes, me too. Burgundy Aujourdâhui had a pretty good note on it, so I picked up a few. Also couldnât resist a few 2012 and 2013 Philippe Colin Santenay 1er Gravieres in the same sale at $25 apiece.
Ramonet. I would love to try Bernard Moreauâs version but have not seen it.
Fontaine-Gagnard Clos Saint-Jean
Bernard Moreau, both VV and La Cardeuse
Hubert Lamy La Goujonne VV
Ramonet (all are good, Boudriotte favorite)
I should have been more clear. The âI disagree partâ was disagreeing with the notion that saying because Don was using European merchants for prices means that we should be including wines that are under $125 direct from domaines and in European restaurants (that wouldnât be close to $125 on allocation for certainly UK merchants or in the open market in Europe more broadly). Itâs difficult to get allocations direct from many top domaines these days. European restaurant pricing is great in certain places and weâve all had bargains, particularly on recent release star burgundy producers, but just because you can buy a Raveneau GC or a Rousseau CSJ for around that price in a few restaurants at certain times of year (they tend to get cleaned out), Iâm trying to buy (as I assume most people here are) several bottles of these wines so I can cellar them and taste them 15-30 years down the line.
As to whether or not those wines are sleepers in Donâs list, whilst it depends on your level of knowledge in Burgundy, Iâd also agree that many of them arenât sleepers in my book. I was responding to the pricing point, not the validity of whether or not they fit Martinâs definition of sleeper.
Perhaps this thread is getting mired in the swamp of semantics, but prices vary so much according to so many factors. It makes a huge difference as to whether you are obtaining a desirable wine (letâs say dâAngerville Ducs) through regular retail channels in the US, through regular retail channels but from a retailer who marks it up significantly in a âhotâ vintage such as 05, 10, 12, 15, etc., through grey market sources, from retailers in Europe, directly on allocation from the domaine, at a restaurant in Europe that has a direct allocation, at a restaurant in the US that marks it up 3 times retail, etc. Not to mention the huge difference in pricing that one sees, at least here in the US as very evident on winesearcher, between vintages that are mostly not sought after (2004, 2011), less sought after (2013, maybe 2014), and highly sought after (2005, 2010, 2012 perhaps, 2015 definitely). The Ducs, as one example, can in the US vary between $125 and $250 or more depending on vintage desirability just among the recent vintages I mentioned.
All of that aside, regardless of what wine one can find or has luckily chanced upon at what price in what market, I donât think wines that are generally recognized as top tier and highly sought after and usually expensive due to demand are what Martin had in mind when he was talking about sleepers.
Exactly, Robert, thank you. Privileged pricing through one source or another does not make a wine a sleeper. Further, as I said in my OP, one canât find a sleeper in most grand cru vineyards, Les Amoureuses, Malconsorts, Clos St. Jacques and the like because great wine is expected to come from those places. I was looking for posters to identify a wine or wines which they believe are of special quality and generally unrecognized, and to share what they know about the wine(s).