Ranking Red Burgs feminine to masculine

[Keith_Levenberg]

F
Chambolle
Volnay

M
Gevrey
Savigny
Vougeot

FM
Morey
Santenay
Vosne

MMF
Pommard

MMM
the Cortons

MMMMMFF
Nuits

[Dan_Kravitz]

F
Chambolle
Volnay

M
Gevrey
Savigny
Vougeot

FM
Morey
Santenay
Vosne

MMF
Pommard

MMM
the Cortons

MMMMMFF
Nuits

I disagree with you on some of the villages, but I really like the way your presented them.

MMMMF
Moulin-a-Vent

And when do we discuss how gender might change with age?
Can of fish!
Kettle of worms!
INCOMING!!!

Thank you.

Dan Kravitz

[S_Rose]

It would be nice to hear proposals of better ways to express a spectrum of wine styles from folks. ?friendly vs grumpy? Pretty vs, well, not so pretty? (there are plenty of pretty guys, so don’t jump on that one) spherical vs angular? I don’t know, there must be better ones.

Also as a side note to all the astonished and disgusted people posting on this thread about the use of these descriptors: finding that thread using the search feature brought up well over 3000 results for the word feminine. So yes, it’s used often.

Just because you * can * use a word doesn’t mean you * should * There have been other words thrown around in this forum that are 100x worse

I’ve stayed out of this thread because the original statement is offensive and ridiculous and misogynistic.

[Siun_O_Connell]

While I agree that if this offends even small numbers of people, it’s best to retire it from use. So I don’t intentionally use it myself as a wine descriptor even if I don’t get offended when other people do. But is anybody else amused that the complaints (almost 100 percent from guys as far as I can tell) always center around using the female descriptor for the delicate traits? Are any guys not offended by being typecast as brutes? It seems kind of patronizing to women in a way.

Not 100% guys however though the number of us women who participate at all is at least partially due to the “quality” of argument seen in this thread.

Given that so many of you feel incapable of describing or categorizing wines without using gendered terms, perhaps you would specify precisely what you mean by “feminine?”

[larry_schaffer]

While I agree that if this offends even small numbers of people, it’s best to retire it from use. So I don’t intentionally use it myself as a wine descriptor even if I don’t get offended when other people do. But is anybody else amused that the complaints (almost 100 percent from guys as far as I can tell) always center around using the female descriptor for the delicate traits? Are any guys not offended by being typecast as brutes? It seems kind of patronizing to women in a way.

Not 100% guys however though the number of us women who participate at all is at least partially due to the “quality” of argument seen in this thread.

Given that so many of you feel incapable of describing or categorizing wines without using gendered terms, perhaps you would specify precisely what you mean by “feminine?”

That was what I stated above - glad to hear I’m not the only one. And yes, perhaps it is ‘easier’ to use a term that many ‘seem’ to agree with what is meant by it, but one can misinterpret anything . . .

I did a Zoom tasting about a year ago and someone described one of my red wines as smelling ‘funky’. I stopped the tasting and said - you mean it smells like James Brown?!?!?

Thought it may be more challenging to further describe a wine, the effort is greatly appreciated by many.

Cheers.

[Yule_Kim]

So, is the following more Vosne-like, Chambolle-like, or Morey-like?

[Steve_Costigan]

I’m wondering if it would be more useful to plot Burgundy on a two dimensional (x-y!) graph with one axis going from less extracted/more transparent to increasing extraction/concentration and the second axis ranging from softer/less structured to harder/more structured/tannic. Given those are two major dimensions I think about for Pinot this would work even for new world wines too. I’m fine with the M/F description but its utility becomes less obvious when you have a highly extracted but more lush wine or a lighter more transparent wine that’s hard with structure.

[alan_weinberg]

Forgetting gender, I would rank villages from more elegant to richer and more powerful.

makes more sense to me and offends no one. But there’s still much variation—look at the laciness and delicacy of Latricieres and often Chapelle compared to other Gevreys as well as the inter-producer variation as mentioned by others.

[Matthew_King]

Forgetting gender, I would rank villages from more elegant to richer and more powerful.

makes more sense to me and offends no one. But there’s still much variation—look at the laciness and delicacy of Latricieres and often Chapelle compared to other Gevreys as well as the inter-producer variation as mentioned by others.

Offends no one? “Richer” and “powerful” connotes white privilege to me.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Wayne Gretzky vs Cam Neely

That’s five-time Lady Byng Memorial Trophy winner Wayne Gretzy, to you.

Yes indeed, and took the Los Angeles Kings to their first Stanley Cup final Wayne Gretzky(possibly a more difficult challenge than the Lady Byng trophies). I think Bam Bam Cam was a great player, but my loyalties are undivided here.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

The terms don’t bother me and, in the grand scheme of misogyny, are so mild to me as to be close to neutral - my opinion only. I know what people mean when they use them and I don’t need all the caveats and context to keep me from being offended. That said, I generally try to be more specifically descriptive when I talk about a wine, as others have suggested. But I still use feminine and masculine from time to time because I occasionally find them useful.

[Brian_Tuite]

Read the Merriam-Webster definition of feminine and explain how any of those descriptors is relevant with wine?

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

What next?

[Phil_T_r_o_t_t_e_r]

Read the Merriam-Webster definition of feminine and explain how any of those descriptors is relevant with wine?

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

What next?

You know someone already had an eye on that:
https://clynemedia.com/PAMA/InclusiveLanguageInitiative/PAMA_InclusiveLanguageInitiative.html

With time it’ll probably come to pipes and sockets.

[Brian_Tuite]

Read the Merriam-Webster definition of feminine and explain how any of those descriptors is relevant with wine?

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

What next?

You know someone already had an eye on that:
PAMA

With time it’ll probably come to pipes and sockets.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

You think these threads are very masculine? Or does that socket look very feminine to you?

[JBrochu]

Read the Merriam-Webster definition of feminine and explain how any of those descriptors is relevant with wine?

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

What next?

BDFA9249-89B7-4544-BF4E-DA29FF340B22.jpeg
C4ED8471-E403-43B5-AB4D-83567A2A7BF8.jpeg

Spoiler those pics some of us are at work!

[Mark_Golodetz]

In the early nineties, my then editor (a man) asked me not to use the words. Over lunch we tried to find something similar. But the words conjure up something very difficult to define, and although we both instinctively knew what they meant, nothing came close to an alternative.

We ended up eliminating masculine or feminine, but I have gone to back to using them albeit sparingly. For me trying to describe Latour without using the word masculine is possible, but I would feel incomplete.

[John_Morris]

Forgetting gender, I would rank villages from more elegant to richer and more powerful.

Those terms sound so, well, bourgeois.

[Brian_Tuite]

Read the Merriam-Webster definition of feminine and explain how any of those descriptors is relevant with wine?

Because we all know that in the English language no word has more than one definition or usage. Are we overanalyzing words to the point of banality?

What next?

BDFA9249-89B7-4544-BF4E-DA29FF340B22.jpeg
C4ED8471-E403-43B5-AB4D-83567A2A7BF8.jpeg

Spoiler those pics some of us are at work!

[Corey_N]

Wayne Gretzky vs Cam Neely

That’s five-time Lady Byng Memorial Trophy winner Wayne Gretzy, to you.

Yes indeed, and took the Los Angeles Kings to their first Stanley Cup final Wayne Gretzky(possibly a more difficult challenge than the Lady Byng trophies). I think Bam Bam Cam was a great player, but my loyalties are undivided here.

Gretzky is my favorite athlete of all time and, IMO, the greatest player in team sports history. When ESPN did their ranking of the greatest athletes of all time, I believe it was the equipment manager who said that for as great a hockey player as Wayn Gretzky was, he was an even better person. That gave me chills.

Now, onto more important matter of ranking NHL on-ice trophies from feminine → masculine:

7. Lady Byng Memorial Trophy – No hockey player wants to win a trophy named after a lady.
8. Hart Memorial Trophy – I know it’s the MVP, but hearts are associated with emotion, which in turn is associated with women.
9. Calder Memorial Trophy - Calder is an artist who made mobiles, which are best displayed over cribs. Even male babies are feminine.
10. Vezina Trophy – Goalies rarely fight; they are definitely the fairer sex…erm, players. Plus “Vezina” sounds slightly sort of Italian but not in a mafioso way, more like wearing a long scarf in the summertime with a sports jacket, loafers and no socks.
11. Frank J. Selke Trophy – An award for gritty forwards. Would be vying for the most masculine award, but Frank J. Selke’s full name was Francis Joseph Aloysius Selke. Francis is a girl’s name and you should never trust someone named Aloysius to be left alone with a child.
12. Ted Lindsay Award - Named after a man nicknamed “Terrible Ted”. Badass player. Would rank higher, but “Lindsay” is a girl’s name.
13. James Norris Memorial Trophy – Named after two great men, Rick James and Chuck Norris. Sure, Rick wore (wears?) his hair like a woman, but as a black belt three times over, Chuck Norris more than makes up for it.

Honorable mention: King Clancy Trophy – Not based on on-ice performance, or it would be the most masculine trophy, hands down. You know what ranks higher than a king? Nothing, that’s what.