Several years ago I was called out, gently, when giving a barrel tasting of pinot noirs to a group and called a wine ‘feminine’. They were absolutely right. I could have very easily said light, ethereal, delicate, gossamer, floral, etc., and been more specific. Point taken.
It kinda reminds me of the Joe Pesci scene in Goodfellas: how am I funny?
Just because it is used often does not make it right ![[snort.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/bdc3944606213c4dca6c1169cf0a166c8bc4f8c9.gif "snort.gif"){kind=small}
Why not use ‘lighter’ or ‘more delicate’ instead? This is NOT to imply that there are ‘feminine’ descriptors but most of the time, when I hear the term ‘feminine’ used by others, this is what they end up meaning.
Cheers.
You can’t be serious.
While I agree that if this offends even small numbers of people, it’s best to retire it from use. So I don’t intentionally use it myself as a wine descriptor even if I don’t get offended when other people do. But is anybody else amused that the complaints (almost 100 percent from guys as far as I can tell) always center around using the female descriptor for the delicate traits? Are any guys not offended by being typecast as brutes? It seems kind of patronizing to women in a way.
Yes, we men are so often the victims of objectification, aren’t we? 
I can and I am. Why are you confused?
Yeah, that would work pretty well. Or maybe Laphroaig ladies.
I really appreciate your perspective here. I think claiming to be offended by terms that are descriptive, widely understood across cultures, not derogatory, and were almost universally acceptable up until maybe 5 years ago (despite the assertion that they belong in the 1950s) is bizarre. People who don’t like these terms are free to not use them. Trying to shame people is something else entirely.
I wouldn’t consider this use as objectification. Would have never dawned on me actually.
That’s five-time Lady Byng Memorial Trophy winner Wayne Gretzy, to you.
I also appreciate your post, but I want to comment on the bolded part because I disagree. There are countless ways in which reductio ad absurdum can really shut down this idea, which has truly become detrimental, in my opinion. These days, there will be a small number of people offended by just about anything. That offense is something that happens within them, and it in no way proves something to be inappropriate.
But . . .
If the term is being used instead of being more specific, wouldn’t the latter be more helpful? I know we work to be as ‘succinct’ as we can with regards to tasting notes but sometimes more is better?
Cheers.
I understand your perspective. But in this case (and a few other cases where I’ve chosen to stop using certain words/phrases) it doesn’t cost me anything to use one of many other alternatives that don’t risk offending somebody, even if no offense was intended.
I don’t like when people get piled on for stuff like this though.
I think it’s perfectly succinct. You suggested “light” or “delicate” as alternatives, but I think this term says a lot more than that in one word, and that it doesn’t always mean light. So many things we say to describe the style of wine are metaphor. If you’re going to have a problem with that as a descriptive technique, tasting notes are going to be extremely technical and boring, and will not tell us much. My favorite tasting notes are those that give me a sense of the personality of the wine. See, there’s some metaphor.
I’ll play, with the clear understanding that the topic is absurd and that I am absurdly underqualified to play:
Beaune
Chambolle
Volnay
Savigny
Vosne
Pernand
Morey
Santenay
Fixin
Gevrey
Nuits
Corton
Pommard
Beset regards,
Dan Kravitz
Fair enough, but you personally choosing not to use this term is a lot different than shaming other people for using it and acting as if it is objectively offensive (not to say you did that). There’s an important distinction between one person choosing something and a group chastising someone for doing something that most people have no problem with and is not intended to offend. I’m sure my abstraction isn’t perfect, but with the specific example we’re discussing, I have never seen a rational argument for taking offense.
It really would be great to get broader perspectives on this - there are only a handful of folks commenting and most are men. My guess- some are not excited to take part for they feel their opinions will be drowned out . . .
Cheers
Condescension is a great way to shut down engagement (to be clear, I’m not talking about you). I don’t think it’s so much about being potentially drowned out.
Forgetting gender, I would rank villages from more elegant to richer and more powerful. This is just for reds.
On the more elegant side, I would put Chassagne-Montrachet (which everyone has ignored but try Ramonet to see what I mean), Morey-St. Denis, Chambolle-Musigny, and Volnay as villages tending to produce more elegant wines, although I think of Chambolle and Volnay as richer, rounder wines that somehow are still quite elegant.
I think of Pommard, NSG, and Aloxe-Corton as producing wines that are tougher when young and generally more powerful wines. I think of Savigny-les Beaune and Pernand-Vergeleses as being somewhat like Aloxe-Corton as tough when young but with age the wines of Pernand tend to get more elegant (esp. from Chandon des Briailles).
I think of wines Vosne Romanee and Gevrey as having a wonderful combination of elegance and power.
I think of this as an exercise of limited use because it does not take into account specific vineyards - say the power of Richebourg vs. the elegance of Romanee St. Vivant. And, then recently I had a Pommard Clos des Poitures that was unbelievably elegant and not at all what I think of as Pommard. Others have agreed. TNs: rdj, heitz-lochardet, Clos des papes - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers And, Mugneret-Gibourg’s NSG Chaignots is on the VR side of NSG so how does this influence how to classify NSGs?
And, similarly, how does one taste a Jadot Beaune Ursules and a Drouhin Beaune Clos des Mouches and generalize about Beaune? Also, I love the Chassagne-Montrachet reds from both Ramonet and Bernard Moreau. But, Ramonet’s wines are consistently more elegant and Moreau’s generally are richer.
So, please don’t expect any of this to hold true all that often. And, that takes us back to generalities about gender, which often are also overly simple.