The wannabe economist asks, to what degree is the success of some producers (or alternatively, the lack of success of others) is a function of luck and/or marketing. I’ve no doubt that most of the famous guys are famous for a reason-I can testify that Mugnier’s 88 Musigny is the single greatest Burgundy I’ve ever had, and my guess is that the wine in the great years puts the 88 to shame. But is Coche Dury’s Corton at $2500 a pop worth 16 bottles of the same wine from Bonneau de Martray, a legendary wine in its own right? Whole categories of these superstars appear to have become commodities more for trading than drinking. Is anyone drinking their Romanee Conti at 14k a bottle and up, or are they just trading it from one auction to the next?
I wonder about producers with long histories about which little no information can be found. Sometimes, it seems, simply because they don’t like to talk about themselves. This is what I read about Gerard Raphet, Frederick Magnien, Gerard Maume, Capitain-Gagnerot, for instance. At the very least, these makers have big time holdings and long histories in Burgundy, but no one seems to have tasted their wines. And their prices, for GC bottlings in the best years, are dramatically below Rousseau Ponsot, Dujac, Vogue etc.
I feel that some small producers never make it onto the critic’s radar, almost as if there is a list of known producers, with wine critics, writers and us enthusiasts not seeing beyond the list of the well-known.
There are certainly some great wines from small family run wineries that never seem to get a mention or a review, yet other well-known wineries might get lots spoken about some much less interesting wines.
In other instances the anonymity is entirely justified!
We do make a point when organising winery visits in Italy, to always slot in a smaller ‘unknown’, often with little more than a quick look at website to see whether there is a hint of being serious about quality. I don’t reckon I’m a genius here (far from it), but more often than not we find a charming place with impressive wines - and very good QPR. It has so often been a more rewarding experience than visiting a bigger ‘name’.
I don’t know about marketing - short of a smart label and an informative website, I’m naturally suspicious of marketing.
Tanzer rates Magnien wines very highly. I’ve heard the stereotype of the Magnien style and so far I agree with the stereotype more than with Tanzer. Delicious rich oaky wines that do not speak of terroir at all. I’m hoping aging will change that. If I end up agreeing someday with Tanzer then Magnien wines will be great bargains.
Points. Buy on points. You can’t go wrong with points.
A famous wine critic once said that he tasted the best wines from an area without the need to visit because the importers had already weeded out the non-competitors. So any wine awarded points was in the competitive range from the get go.
Anyway, it seems you have the right idea in Burgundy, especially now try to become familiar with the lesser known producers as best you can. Also, if budget is a concern try the village and Bourgogne level wines of the better, even hyped producers…many times those well made, lower level wines are some of the most enjoyable bottles, as they give the Burgundy experience without the guilt of financial ruin.
Tanzer rates Magnien wines very highly. I’ve heard the stereotype of the Magnien style and so far I agree with the stereotype more than with Tanzer. Delicious rich oaky wines that do not speak of terroir at all. I’m hoping aging will change that. If I end up agreeing someday with Tanzer then Magnien wines will be great bargains.
Please forgive if I screw up the format-still new to message boarding
I like Tanzer and subscribed for many years. But as I drink through choices as I made in part from his recommendations, I find some divergence from his likes and mine. I agree with what (I believe) George is describing in a Tanzer wine if one may damn with such faint praise; lots of everything, especially alcohol when the sugar is available (think hot weather pinots or Australian shiraz). Not always a lot refinement.
Wine and business cultures in Burgundy are radically different than in America. For example, the idea that bigger is better is regarded as pure fallacy and the Burgundians get quite a chuckle about it. I laugh too. In Burgundy, quality and pricing are primarily a function of terroir and vintage, not points. And the real Burgundians will never sell out. They are set in their ways, dedicated to their craft and genuine. You can find gems from lesser-known producers at a fraction of the cost of the more renowned producers. However, DRC, Leroy, Rousseau, Mugnier, Roumier, and several others are exceptional.
Do not worry about points when buying Burgundy. Buy wines made from the best vineyards in good/great vintages. The lesser known, the less expensive it will be. As you move forward on this journey, you will discover more, have more fun, understand more about terroir typicity and align your purchases with the styles you prefer.
I’ve always thought that the Maume wines were nice and I’ve never understood why they don’t get more attention. I think it likely has to do with the fact that they show best with age rather than a lack of of PR. After all, they are imported by Kermit lynch, which is all the PR one could dream of. But they are good, not great. I don’t like the Magnien wines at all and I think they are jammy, cloying, and hard to drink. I think a lot of people have had similar experiences. As for luck, I think there is a little bit of a “gotta have it” that follows in all wine regions where producers become the next big thing and prices skyrocket. But the ponsots, drc, roumier, rousseaus have been top of the heap for a while. I think their prices have more to do with the fact that there are just a lot more rich people than there used to be (see, for example, China).
A
The best advice is, if something is expensive, BUY IT! Because someone who has more disposable money than you may buy it first, and you would be s-o-l. Buying expensive wines helps all in the vinous food chain: it gets estates that can charge an arm-and-a-leg the chance to buy German and Italian cars, vacation on the Riviera, oh yeah, and afford to invest more in the estate so that even MORE money can be charged for future wines (trickling up theory of wealth). It helps the importer send his kids to private schools and expensive colleges. It helps stores that carry such wines wine the honor and status race simply by having them sit on their air conditioned shelves (bragging rites). And, not least, it helps you be the shit at parties and your name and infamy will be posted about on the interwebs and perhaps make you very popular indeed. So please buy expensive wines, because not all of us can!
[quote=]Please forgive if I screw up the format-still new to message boarding
I like Tanzer and subscribed for many years. But as I drink through choices as I made in part from his recommendations, I find some divergence from his likes and mine. I agree with what (I believe) George is describing in a Tanzer wine if one may damn with such faint praise; lots of everything, especially alcohol when the sugar is available (think hot weather pinots or Australian shiraz). Not always a lot refinement.
David Silverman[/quote]
Yes. I also believe that not only is it preference, but that Tanzer and Parker actually occasionally get confused over when mid-palate richness is coming from the fruit, and when from oak and alcohol glycerin filling in a hole.
Does anyone have experience with Raphet? His wines seem to be available on a variety of reselling/auction sites and in variety of vintages. At 60, I am afraid I am more interested in looking backward toward older vintages than laying down wines that may never be ready (for me) to drink.
Tanzer and Parker actually occasionally get confused over when mid-palate richness is coming from the fruit, and when from oak and alcohol glycerin filling in a hole.
The ratings on CT are quite helpful-not only for the whether-one-should-buy but the when-one-might-drink. Certainly no grade inflation there. When I see a consensus 94 score I know there’s some serious juice to be had. No surprise, as I have learned, that there is much cross fertilization between this site and CT.
As far Parker, I’ll abstain. Oh sh-t no I won’t. IMO he is more responsible for the commodification of wine than any other force I can think of. The merchants on this site must grit their teeth every time a consumer comes into a shop and begins with “I’m looking for a wine recommended by RP.” I’ve had the good luck to know a handful of conscientious, thoughtful sellers, willing to listen and to teach, to learn both what I liked and to open my horizons. Relationships matter.
For the Parker fans out there, I’m ready to take my punishment like a man…
As far Parker, I’ll abstain. Oh sh-t no I won’t. IMO he is more responsible for the commodification of wine than any other force I can think of. The merchants on this site must grit their teeth every time a consumer comes into a shop and begins with “I’m looking for a wine recommended by RP.” I’ve had the good luck to know a handful of conscientious, thoughtful sellers, willing to listen and to teach, to learn both what I liked and to open my horizons. Relationships matter.
It’s a fairly simplistic view. Is he responsible or are the people who think they make what he likes responsible/
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