I am sure you are correct in assuming some orders did not use a cc.
Just off the phone with Capital One (Visa). Same explanation as others have received - 540 days, regardless of merchant fault or any other circumstance is their limit based on contract with Visa. No resolution yet on charges under that time limit.
Another Chase Visa purchaser here. Unfortunately all of my unfilled purchases were more than 540 days ago. The Visa chargeback manual for merchants suggests that 540 days after the transaction date is the outer limit for a chargeback in the case of undelivered goods under Visa rules (MC rules are similar but use some different definitions). But this is just a policy manual to advise merchants about the rules, not the actual governing contract between them (and definitely not a contract with cardholders), so it is not clear to me whether there are any potential exceptions (for example, based on a more recent assurance from PC that the wines were still “on their way”). In poring through the threads, I haven’t seen anyone report any hint of success on a Visa card chargeback 540+ days after the transaction date. Please chime in if you are able to break the 540-day Visa wall!
I haven’t yet been able to get a copy of my Chase cardmember agreement (they won’t put it on-line but are mailing it to me, oddly enough) to see if there is anything that can help there. The on-line information suggests a 60-day dispute deadline, but I do not believe that applies in the case of pre-ordered goods.
Sure wishing I had used my Amex card for these purchases. It seems clear from the reports above that Amex uses a different set of rules that is more favorable to people in our situation.
In poring through the threads, I haven’t seen anyone report any hint of success on a Visa card chargeback 540+ days after the transaction date. Please chime in if you are able to break the 540-day Visa wall!
I have had success getting past 540 days with MasterCard. As you say, their definitions are different and the 540 days does not seem to apply to goods non delivered (it does clearly apply to services received in part but not in whole). Probably not helpful to you, but good luck.
Jim - How long did it take before you saw the provisional credits? BoA Visa opened my claim on 12/30, but have never provided a provisional credit. When I called today for an update, they said they were still researching and no credit would be issued until they finished. They could not provide me with any information other than it could take up to two billing cycles/90 days to resolve.
The provisional credits appeared in my account on the same day I called.
I need to put a call into the supervisor and hope to have a similar result. But the initial response to my written submission with all the facts/info/documentation discussed in this thread was that nothing could be charged back because PC is bankrupt and they have no one to seek recovery from. First time I’ve seen that discussed in the PC threads as a reason for a denied request.
i take it from some of these messages that the below is not the kind of result that most of you have received from american express? i don’t understand what the f*ck is their issue here, but it’s not clear why they would need to get a response from the merchant given uploaded documents showing the charges, the orders undelivered, the bankruptcy filing with my name referenced, their website description of pre-arrival, and articles talking about the fraud. and oddly i had two separate charges, both made at basically the same time (ie outside of 6 months), one of which remains open with the provisional credit. this is after i was told on the phone by someone named ivan in customer service that with undelivered goods i can “rest easy because even if the charges were two or three years old i would be 100% protected by amex”. i have re-opened this dispute. suffice it to say that if amex is not protective, and if the person who assured me was inaccurate, amex will have lost a longtime (since 2001) customer forever. over my lifetime i hope to charge many multiples of what i’m out via PC, and it will either be on amex, or they will never ever see a penny of revenue from it.
Dear Robert Haas,
We would like to advise you of the status of your claim on your account from Premiere. We removed the amount under review of [ ] from your account during our investigation.
Under normal circumstances, we would be able to contact the merchant on your behalf. However, due to the time that has elapsed since the charge(s) were incurred, we regret that we are unable to do so.
Merchants are required to keep their records for only six months. Accordingly, we must operate within those timeframes. Please note, we have reviewed the information you provided , however we can only suggest that if you wish to pursue this matter, to please contact the merchant directly.
In the future, we encourage you to notify us immediately of any questionable charge that appears on your statement.
We apologize for any inconveniences this situation may have caused you. We sincerely appreciate your patience and understanding.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your continued Membership. We know you have many choices when it comes to credit or charge cards, so we sincerely appreciate your business.
Therefore, we have adjusted your account for the amount of [ ] which was held under review and this will reflect on an upcoming statement.
We trust this resolves your questions. Thank you for your Card Membership.
Sincerely,
American Express Customer Care
Thanks, Jim. It is a little perplexing that there is so much variation in their responses, especially if it is just an insurance deal for them.
I have tried calling the 2927 claims dept number twice today only to get “heavy call volume, please hold for the next associate” and gave up after 25 minutes on hold. I had better luck calling PC, lol!
MODERATOR please delete, this is BS and does nto belong in this thread.
Does anyone have a screenshot of the PC Terms and Conditions, stating the indefinite delivery horizon for pre-arrival purchases? That seems critical for credit-card chargeback claims. The website, like the business, has closed.
From Premier Cru’s website. I made certain Chase received a copy of this, for analyzing my requests.
Pre-Arrival vs. In-Stock - Premier Cru.pdf (152 KB)
And the full “Terms and Conditions” from Premier Cru’s website.
Terms and Conditions - Premier Cru.pdf (353 KB)
Some thoughts, trying to be helpful (not didactic):
This seems to me a potentially crucial issue that people may be running up against. As you allude to, there may be a privity of contract issue for people like you. That is, a CC product issued by a separate entity. This could be the problem facing people having problems with Amex, too. In my case, in which Amex made life super easy for me, my relationship is with Amex, not with Costco or some bank and only through them with Amex. So for you, Joe, I think your relationship is likely with Chase, not with Visa, though I don’t know for sure.
Privity is the directness of a contractual relationship. It is possible that the distinction between a direct CC-consumer relationship and a “branded” card-consumer relationship is like this:
Me - Amex ==> privity between Amex and me.
vs
Me - Costco - Amex ==> no privity between Amex and me. Only between Costco and me. Costco has “privity of contract” with Amex. i.e. two contractual relationships. The contractual terms of each contract obligate its specific signatories whether or not the terms of the two contracts are similar or dissimilar – in fact, those contracts are unrelated which means their signatories are unrelated, which is the real concern (in the absence of an assumption of terms).
It might be worth mentioning to Visa-MC-Amex, when dealing with them, that it is THEIR reputation on the line, not that of the issuer/intermediary entity. In other words, you always assumed your relationship was with Visa-MC-Amex – DIRECTLY.
Archived pre-arrival definition BEFORE they changed it in the last days of December 2015…
I’m concerned that this is where a lot of us will end up with Amex. A lot of people have provisional credits, but I don’t know many people with finalized credits yet. Have people finalized their credits with Amex for older orders?
trying to get my $ back from Citicard VISA and MC, back as far as Dec 2012. Disputes opened recently. All pending.
I’d posted a couple of times about my experience with Chase in the master complaint thread. Happy to say that all thirteen of my reported transactions, going back to August 2014, have resulted in provisional credits. Those were split across two Visas (a Sapphire and an airline card), with the majority on the Sapphire.
I began the process with a secure message on their website, the response to which requested a call to 888 489-8452. Spent about 30 minutes identifying all transactions that represented open orders. The rep had an understanding of what wine futures were, and we went through each transaction identifying the specific wines involved. He logged the expected delivery date as the date of the bankruptcy filing.
I received four credits within a few days, and a call from another representative for more information after a week. Connected with her on Monday; she asked for details on when my last contact with Premier Cru had been and what delivery dates were promised. (I indicated that they never committed to a firm date, always speaking in timeframes of several months and continually revising estimates. My last email contact with PC was on 1/6.)
Offered to provide written documentation, but they didn’t take me up on that and the rest of the credits posted yesterday, so I’m whole (for now) on the Chase transactions after a fairly painless process.
Next up is Barclay - will update once I manage to wait through the hold times.
American Airline/Citibank Mastercard and Costco Amex gave me provisional credits for purchases going back to April2014after a brief explanation of the futures process.
Good luck to those with AMEX! They will find any way they can to get out of paying claims. After being a cardholder with them for 25 years, I cancelled after they denied a claim (auto related) a few years ago citing some far reaching fine print. VISA and MC are much better and it is showing as AMEX is losing a lot of bank and merchant relationships the last few years…