BofA is working through my 18 claims (posted in the complaints thread as I hadn’t seen this one yet) and today posted credit for 8 of them going back to mid-last year. I assume that they are working through them and will see the balance credited this coming week. They had previously credited two orders that were within 120 days. The CSR with whom I spoke on Saturday told me she thought it was likely that all of my charges would be credited back given the nature of pre-arrivals and the chap 7 filing. Good luck all!
Neal and David, this is encouraging. Thanks!
3 calls in to Chase. No success. I keep getting the explanation that my orders from July '13 to Jan '14 are outside their dispute window. Is there anything I can explain to them to get it to move forward? Keep getting stuck.
I Asked to speak to a supervisor. She looked up premier cru in her internal system and it seemed to automatically tell her to give the credit. She said she knew all about what was happening.
FYI From the Redd Collection site ;
A note on our pre-arrival offerings–
The unfortunate debacle & bankruptcy of retailer Premier Cru has skyrocketed our sales since many of their disappointed buyers have gotten their orders filled with us. If you are part of the creditors owed we send our good wishes on a speedy recovery. If we can attempt to fulfill your order(s), we stand by ready to try. If we are able to do so quickly, it could possibly help in showing that PC was not making a good faith attempt to locate your wines.
We have been buying with integrity from suppliers in Europe for the past decade with zero issues. These commercial & private sources have a solid track record going back 20+ years, and most store their wines in the underground Octavian Vaults in England that were dug out in the 1920’s. Octavian currently protects more than 1,000,000 cases.
We offer ONLY wines that are in possession of our suppliers, and we generally do not offer anything in very small quantity as it is unlikely to remain available when the time comes for us to request it. There is no “sell-then-hunt” process here.
To repeat, if the wines are not actually part of inventory, buyers will be notified immediately and WILL NOT wait for us to find it. We have delivered 100% of all pre-arrivals, and will continue to do so. If you desire a wine that is not listed with us, send your wish list and we will complete the search BEFORE any of your funds are committed.
The time frame for credit card purchases can be extended to 540 days in most cases based on PC’s stated delivery time of “over two years,” the bankruptcy filing that shows they are not going to deliver the wines, and the MC and Visa policies. Armed with that information, you should have a fairly strong argument. Whether you get a representative who knows the policy and is able and willing to work with you may be another story. Beyond 540 days, success with the credit card companies is unlikely.
Some links supporting the above statements:
MC and VISA policies
Keep scrolling down past MC information to get to the VISA details
The relevant section is 3.26, which begins on page 3-133, about halfway through the document.
AMEX policies
Premier Cru’s pre-arrival policy stating “over two years”:
https://www.premiercru.net/premier/company/PreArrival.do;jsessionid=C3C2EA4D8972A5BCD1496E78DCBC8EA7
The bankruptcy filing:
Was this with Visa or Mastercard? Chase Visa told me twice they can’t do anything. Bank of America Mastercard I’ve called twice and they haven’t eve returned my calls because I asked to speak to a supervisor.
I’ve heard privately from 2 people that Amex has given them tentative credit for charges >540 days old, pending a response (unlikely) from PC. So maybe not hopeless for some of those older charges.
I don’t know if it’s related to past history or luck of the draw with the rep they got on the phone or if it’s just business as usual.
If you’re not getting anywhere on the phone, it’s not a bad idea to politely ask if a supervisor is available to help you since this is such an unusual situation. Make it clear that the delivery date was open-ended “over 2 years” and that with the bankruptcy it’s clear that the wine will not be delivered.
Good luck!
This was with a Chase Visa. Kind of frustrating that they aren’t working with me. I will try again later and report back.
The 540-day rule seems to be a hard line in the sand? If you use today, or even the date of the bankruptcy filing, that means you can only reach transactions entered July 2014 or later. I’d be interested in hearing any arguments for why the clock should extend further back. I have a few orders in 2013/early 2014 that I wouldn’t mind disputing with Visa. Amex has been helpful with everything later than that.
Folks should mention that the merchant acted fraudulently and this isn’t “just” a case of non-delivery. PC expressly said on their web site that they already owned the pre-arrival wines; the delay was just getting them to California for customer delivery. We now know that wasn’t true, and that those representations were fraudulent. That, coupled with the lengthy stated delivery window, should provide the best chance of getting chargebacks. My orders were all with a B of A Visa, all less than two years old, and all have been provisionally credited back.
I read the MasterCard guide linked above and I believe the 540 day rule would not apply to Premier Cru (and I have a lot at stake with transactions with Citibank over 540 days old and a few with Barclays - $30,000 in total transactions about $6000 (estimated) over 540 days old). Guide says:
“1.7.3 Time Frame for First Chargeback”:
"The time frames for the first chargeback are 45, 60, 90, 120, and 540 calendar
days after the Central Site Business Date, depending on the individual reason
for the chargeback. GCMS measures this time limit from the Central Site
Business Date of the presentment.
For certain chargeback reasons, the time frame may be calculated from a day
other than the Central Site Business Date. The message reason codes in section
3, MasterCard Message Reason Codes—Dual Message System Transactions
detail these exceptions.
When delayed delivery of goods or performance of services by a merchant
results in a subsequent dispute about the condition of the goods or the quality
of the services, MasterCard will calculate the period of 120 days using the
delivery or performance date.
In cases that involve the delayed delivery of goods or performance of services
that the cardholder asserts the merchant never provided, MasterCard will
calculate the period of 120 days from the latest anticipated date that the
merchant was to provide the goods or services.
This seems to me to be saying that you have 120 days from the latest anticipated date (in this case the bankruptcy date, assuming you can prove Premier Cru said your orders would be delivered after Jan 2016) to submit your claim. These are claims for delivery of goods never provided (wine not received) and this seems to be part of “For certain chargeback reasons, the time frame may be calculated from a day
other than the Central Site Business Date.”
The final paragraph might be interpreted to limit you to 540 days from order date, but I think that is for partial services only:
In cases that involve interrupted services where the services are immediately
available, the period of 120 days will begin on the date that the services cease.
In no case shall the first chargeback exceed 540 days (approximately 18
months) from the Central Site Business Date of the first presentment. The issuer
must prorate the chargeback amount to reflect the services received. (Refer to
section Example 13—Prorated Chargeback Period for Interrupted Services to
determine the proper prorated chargeback period.)
I do not see how the failure to deliver wine in a pre-arrival order can be deemed “interrupted services where the services are immediately
available”. The 540 day limit seems only apply to this condition, given the way the document is written. I think Visa may be more restrictive, but this sure seems like a reasonable position for MasterCard. Anyway, Citibank, at least for now, has processed my MasterCard claims. We will see in March if I get all the credits I suppose.
I have a different concern in my next post…
So here is my biggest concern. Premier Cru engaged one or more banks to act as “acquirer” for its transactions. You as customer have a MasterCard/Visa with an “issuer” bank. So if there are $70 million of outstanding customer orders, say 20% of them were MasterCard purchases, or $14 million. This might be spread between 500 issuer banks, or $28,000 per bank (some will be more, some will be less, and the 20% and 500 assumptions are arbitrary). Each issuer bank should have no problem taking a loss on the chargeback, if it comes to that. But the issuer goes to the acquirer bank for collection, and this process involves a much more concentrated risk. If all these charges are put back to the acquirer, and the merchant has zero available to be recovered, the acquirer bank would be out $14 million. Question is can it afford that loss or does that make the acquirer itself insolvent? I do not know the answer, but I am concerned. Supposed the acquirer is unable to meet its charge backs and then files for BK protection itself, who then bears the loss? The consumer (me, and presumably others PC customers in similar position), the issuer banks, the MasterCard association itself, or is there no clear answer? Anyone want to speculate?
My example assumed 20% of the $70 million were MasterCard, and that each credit card company had a different acquirer bank. Suppose 60% o the transactions went through the same acquirer bank. Then the $14 million risk I discussed would be $42 million - meaning there is even more risk that the acquirer bank can not handle to size of chargeback.
The flaw in the system, as I understand it, is that the acquirer bank is supposed to be underwriting the credit of the merchant. There is no way the acquirer could have known that PC had $70 million of outstanding orders where it took full payment from customers and made zero deliveries. I do not see how any reasonable human being would expect this. I suspect 12-18 months from now, the credit card company rules will be re-written, at least in part, to prevent this type of situation from occurring again.
Please, others, tell me where my logic is flawed.
WRT Amex, I’ll add to the chorus that has had success with them. So far. The rep I spoke to was super helpful and seemed genuinely shocked (I just called the number on the back of my card, nothing special.) He even joked “maybe they’re waiting for the grapes to ferment!” If only, my friend. So, I’ve been given provisional credit for my unfulfilled orders (just over $1K) that go back to 2013.
It’s important to note that though they have done this, this is provisional and pending investigation. They will almost definitely not be able to get in touch with PC, so at that point it becomes our word against theirs (obviously I have documentation, though they have not yet asked for it). Giving this credit only means that they have opened the dispute, not that they have ruled either way on it. It’s totally possible that in 30 days or so (the time they have to work this out) they will get back to us and say “no bueno.”
But, all in all, my experience with them has been very positive and reminded me why I’ve been an Amex member for two decades. Especially after hearing about the not-so positive others have had with MC, etc.
Same here. I had one brief (30 minutes or so) call with one rep who seemed to know his system well (though he didn’t yet know of the PC-specific situation, I believe; this was in the middle of December). I picked out the specific wines that were undelivered, their dates of order, and dollar amounts of both the total invoice amount (thus amount charged to AMEX) and of the undelivered wines. I was given provisional credit. They did not ask (yet) for supporting documentation. I asked what to do in case I got a refund or delivery of the wines (again, this was pre-BK petition) and he said just call back, no problem, and they’ll reverse the credit(s) to reflect the fact.
I can’t believe this is the first bankruptcy case where the Big CC companies faced $50+ million in chargebacks.
Anyone have any data on this?
Just questioning this further…do you think folks bought wine with alternate means of payment? I.e. Was all 70mm purchased using CC? Perhaps large orders required wires etc.
I have had a decent experience with Citibank MasterCard so far, but my numbers are small and I pay for my card annually.
KJF
I can’t believe this is the first bankruptcy case where the Big CC companies faced $50+ million in chargebacks.
I really don’t know. That is why I posed the question. Seems like a large exposure for a single company. A chain bankruptcy (Mervyns for example) would have multiple banks involved (I think). PC had one single store, and $70 million is an astonishing number for them - even relative to their annual sales I would imagine. Does anyone know what PC sold (or claims to have sold) in 2013, 2014 or 2015? And could be one or very few banks on the hook (unless insured by larger master card association or the issuer banks).
I assume policies differ from bank to bank, but what may be helpful to those who are having difficulty is reiterating what was explained to me by B of A. Their policy for charge backs generally is that the charge can only be contested within 60 days of the transaction. When it is a purchase of something that has not been received (i.e. pre-arrival wines), the clock resets when communication occurs between the customer and the retailer about that transaction. Communication can be by phone or via email. If any of you have communicated with Premier Cru during the last 60 days, this should meet their criteria. The age of the charge should then become irrelevant…
I believe one of the documents filed listed $19 million in sales last year (or 2014?).