Otto,
I don’t think Guigal is going to be your style preference, but E. Guigal’s Condrieu La Doriane is a benchmark for the grape in my experience. What I believe to be the pinnacle of the expression of Condrieu, for elegance and transparency is Domaine Georges Vernay Condrieu Coteau de Vernon. Both are worth trying, I only spend my money on one of them…once in a while.
I’ve tasted them both. We actually had La Doriane in a blind Condrieu tasting - and it was very divisive. A few people loved it, but a huge majority thought the wine was the worst wine of the evening. The person who organized the tasting said the wine was one of the biggest disappointments in a long time.
However, I do agree that Coteau de Vernon is among the Condrieus there are, if not the best. Many people consider Viognier to be a variety that needs to be drunk in its youth, but the +15 yo example of Vernon I’ve tasted is probably the best Condrieu (and Viognier) I’ve tasted. Very few producers make Condrieu like Vernay.
La Doriane can be great -like 2010 - when a strong vintage swallows the oak, other vintages can be a bit overblown.
I also like Vergets Vernon but often prefer Perret C.d.Chery or Gangloff’ Condrieu.
Ogier s Vignes de George Vernay is also fine.
Fiarano made from Malvasia grapes. Tonight we will be opening their 1995. It’s a wonderful wine, slightly strange, and has an excellent backstory.
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/22/dining/an-italian-prince-and-his-magic-cellar.html
The best Condrieu I’ve had. Sadly they are not cheap.
Now that we are in Northern Rhone, then I just remembered a 2015, Franck Balthazar, Saint-Péray that took my by surprise! Really good.
Vatan by the master himself.
I can definitely see putting Domaine Georges Vernay Condrieu Coteau de Vernon on this list. To me, it transcends its category and has a way of being very rich and ripe tasting, yet still having tension and minerality. Wonderful stuff that’s worth an occasional splurge, as someone who rarely spends that much on a bottle of wine.
Yikes- well, I disagree. Whether you like Condrieu or not, I still think it’s interesting- which is what this thread is all about. The appellation is one of the few where viognier dominates and the wines are very distinctive in character. The fact that the Guigal was so divisive at your tasting suggests that it could be interesting.
IMO, the highest and best use for Viognier is a blending grape with Syrah in Cote Rotie. I have yet to taste a Viognier/Condrieu that I find interesting enough to buy, but I haven’t tasted Vernay in some time.
I like Condrieu when it is good. More often than not, it seems to be it isn’t.
Sure, it might be one of the very few Viognier-only appellations, but that might make it interesting in paper only. Having tasted a good handful of Condrieus, I think that more often Viognier that comes from somewhere else can be not only more affordable, but also better in quality. Relatively few producers make wines that are actually interesting and showcase what Viognier can be at its best. I don’t really think anonymous wines that are lacking badly in acidity and taste like pear drops and other fermentation esters along with some sweet, buttery new oak are particularly interesting.
IMO the few best Condrieus could make a reasonable addition to this “list” we have here, but Condrieu as a whole - definitely not.
It might be interesting, if you think a big, ponderous and overripe white that mainly tastes of sweet, creamy new oak and alcohol is interesting. Those few people who thought it was the best wine of the evening had very new world-aligned palates. While the Condrieus we tasted at that tasting were a somewhat mixed success, at least all the other wines tasted like Condrieu. The Guigal wine was so overripe and oaky that it really didn’t show any Viognier aromatics at all, hence most of us thought it wasn’t really representative of Condrieu.
I’m inclined to agree with you, I’ve never had Vernay, but most of the Condrieu I’ve had I found underwhelming and overpriced. I have had some nice Viognier, Condrieu or otherwise, from Yves Cuilleron, but there too I’ve had disappointments.
Fair enough- I’ve only had Condrieu a few times, and I enjoyed it. As you say, it is interesting, but maybe just on paper. I am a bit bummed though bc I recently splurged on a single bottle of La Doriane. It’s not cheap, but I was swayed by the high scores- always a dangerous practice! And I don’t consider myself as having a “very new world aligned palate”.
Any recommendations for good Condrieu other than Vernay?
A few years back I had the 2017 Suertes del Marques Trenzado from the Canary Islands and was blown away by it. Went back and bought a half case and blew through it. Bought a few more bottles before it was gone from the shelves and again, blown away by it. It was like nothing I had tasted before.
And then…the 2018 came out and I hated it. Hated the 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022 as well.
For that brief month or two, I drank a case or so of one of the more reasonably priced, interesting white wines I had every tried.
It’s quite brave to suggest a whole appellation based on just a few examples. I know I wouldn’t do it. After all, there are very few appellations in the world that have nothing but excellent producers and are pure perfection throughout the regional production. I mean even Santorini isn’t and they have just about one to two dozen producers there.
I guess that’s the price to pay when you hunt for high scores. Hopefully you’ll learn after getting burnt a few times. Or I don’t know, maybe you’ll enjoy a huge, overripe and excessively oaked white after all! I just can’t see the attraction there.
Of course you can check out the less expensive Vernay Condrieus - they are also good, if not at the quality of Vernon. Then there are wines like André Perret and Stephane Ogier’s Vieilles Vignes de Vernay that have been IMO pretty lovely. They do need some age to lose their slightly oaky leanings, but they are still nothing like Guigal in that respect.
I think I ve given a few recs above, and I ll add Cuilleron Chaillets
Hey Otto you tasted Francois Dumas Condrieu right? Is it any good?
I drank 3 bottles of Condrieu in the last 8 years: 2 bottles of 2013 Alain Paret Les Ceps du Nebadon and 1 bottle of 2013 François Villard Le Grand Vallon. I did not care for the first one at all ( flat, oaky and herby) but I noted that the second one (Villard) showed freshness and that I would buy again (which I did not).
This just exhausted pretty much all my knowledge of Condrieu so I shall forever shut up on this subject.
I have. It’s surprisingly natty. It’s more medium-bodied rather than big and oily, but aromatically a bit atypical with herby and appley tones rather than those peachy and floral aromatics typical of Viognier. And a healthy dose of VA. That acetic streak did distract a bit. Not a bad wine per se, but I’m not a fan and the wine didn’t really feel like a Condrieu to me.
Musar and and LdH are at the top of my list, but I’ll give a shoutout to some domestic (board faves) that deserve to be on any list of most interesting whites in the world:
@Adam_Frisch’s Sabelli-Frisch Milk Fed Marsanne is the most interesting and delicious white made from rhone varietals i’ve ever had.
@H_Wallace_Jr’s EDWC Full King Crab is intense and otherworldly. As is the stable of other whites he’s made, including the Dirty & Rowdy Familiar blanc. And if you count “majority white” wines, Teleport Gris is 59% white (semillon and chenin blanc) and 41% red – and is like no other white or red you’ve had before.
@Morgan_Twain-Peterson’s Cuvee Karatas needs a few years on its side but makes you feel that Bordeaux could learn a thing or two from CA on how to make a broad shouldered but electric white based around semillon. I’ve not had any old Hunter Valley Semillons but I’m guessing this is in the same direction.
Kalin Cellars Chardonnays, where the current releases are from 1997. @William_Kelley once mentioned a blind tasting where some tasters picked a 95 Kalin LV over an '02 DRC Montrachet.
And then one other thing that hasn’t been mentioned above is 30+ year old Vouvray/Savennieres (89 Huet, 90 Baumard, etc).