Let's talk Chambolle

[A_Songeur]

Peter,
Indeed, I agree with you, Clos Vougeot is the grand cru I own and drink most bottles as it is a really relatively good QPR (we are in burgundy though…). But there are so many great grand crus… I hesitate to rank them (Not to mention I never drink RC or La Tache (except a glass of 08 which was great) as you have a lot of diversity within the same appelation and it would need a very large sampling to be able to draw serious conclusions.

Other question: Clos de beze does not get much love in this thread. Is it because you rate it as Chambertin (as can be) or rate it lower than top Grand crus?

[Peter_Chiu]

****Other question: Clos de beze does not get much love in this thread. Is it because you rate it as Chambertin (as can be) or rate it lower than top Grand crus? ****


Antoine…excellent question .

I am too lazy …so when I said Chambertin I really mean to include CdBeze ( or the wine from the AC Chambertin-CdBeze).

If one looks at the map Chambertin and CdBeze…they are next to each other. Nowadays I would rate them at the same level and their difference is just splitting hair.

Clos de Beze…does not get much love ?

Hmmm…one need to go back in time and into the history in Burgundy…to have a better understanding.

In the old days or way before 1935 people thought differently. Both Chambertin and CdBeze…are officially…the names of a lieu-dit ( = vineyard).

Sometimes after 1935 they became are 2 official ACs : AC Chambertin g-cru and AC Chambertin-CdBeze G-cru. Each of them, because they are G-crus…have they own laws ( which were written in official text)

When they started to establish the AC system in 1935, at the beginning there were 3 classes of AC : the grand-cru class, the village class and the general class. Later on around 1939 or so, they had 4 levels ( out of the 3 AC Classes ) : G-cru level, and added a 1er level in the village class and the generic level.

The official text of AC Chambertin Grand-Cru lists 2 lieux-dites : Chambertin and CdBeze ; whereas the official text in AC Chambertin-CdBze lists only 1 lieu-dite : CdBze.

In simple English : the juice from the vines in the lieu-dit CdBese has the right and the option to label the wine under the AC Chambertin G-cru or AC Chambertin-CdBeze. In those old days, the juice from the lieu-dit : Clos de Beze…would always be labelled as : AC Chambertin G-crus - because the selling price was higher.

Whereas the the juice from the vines in the lieu-dit Chambertin is allowed…only…to be labelled as : AC Chambertin - G-cru.

When the AC Systems started in the early 1930s…the owners of the land…needed to apply to have their land to be classified in the AC levels.

The persons who owned land in the lieu-dit : Chambertin was granted the right to label their wine as : AC Chambertin g-cru.

The persons who owned land in the lieu-dit : CdBze was granted the right to label their wine as : AC Chambertin-CdBeze.

BUT…they also applied for and was granted the right to have their wine to be labelled as : AC Chambertin - if they wish. They did that…because…AC Chambertin G-cru …wine…were selling more in those days .

They persons who owned landing the in the lieu-dit : Chambertin …did not apply for to have the right to label their wine under the AC Chambertin-CdBze because the price from CdBeze was selling less.

Hope my above message is not too long and hope it is clear…

[Keith_Levenberg]

Peter,
Indeed, I agree with you, Clos Vougeot is the grand cru I own and drink most bottles as it is a really relatively good QPR (we are in burgundy though…). But there are so many great grand crus… I hesitate to rank them (Not to mention I never drink RC or La Tache (except a glass of 08 which was great) as you have a lot of diversity within the same appelation and it would need a very large sampling to be able to draw serious conclusions.

Other question: Clos de beze does not get much love in this thread. Is it because you rate it as Chambertin (as can be) or rate it lower than top Grand crus?

Perceptions may be somewhat askew because Rousseau’s Chambertin is widely considered better than their Beze, and Rousseau is Rousseau, but elsewhere Beze is widely considered better than Chambertin. I wish I had more experience to have a firm opinion on the former (so won’t opine on whether that marvelous Chambertin label is a factor…). But on the other side of the ledger it seems revealing that if you own both Chambertin and Beze you are legally allowed to mix them together and call them Chambertin but you cannot mix them together and call them Beze. Either way, either one of them is certainly capable of making Burgundy at the absolute highest levels when all circumstances permit.

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

[Jay_Miller]

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I love Bonnes Mares and own more of it than any other grand cru but even I would not argue otherwise.

[Greg_K]

I know that the Drouhin wines get love but are any of the Jadot C-M wines worth trying?

While I personally prefer the Drouhin style many of Jadot’s wines from their own vines can be sensational. In particular I like their Baudes and their Amoureuses.

Speaking of which, Drouhin’s Baudes is tied for me with their Amoureuses as my favorite 1er Cru from them.

I’ve avoided talking it up over the years but I’m not really buying any more…

I’d say I prefer Jadot’s Amoureuses to Drouhin’s and vice versa for the Baudes. But I’d drink any of them with joy.

I prefer Drouhin’s Musigny hands down to Jadot’s (based on only one bottle of 1993 of the latter however so take it with a grain of salt).

Over the general range I like Drouhin hands down, from the village Chambolle, the 1er Cru, etc.

In the late '90s and early 2000s Fourrier made some remarkably beautiful Chambolle-like wines. Some of them came from Gevrey .

My problem with Barthod is I never get the timing right. If someone else opens one it is a beautiful ethereal wine. If I open one it’s shut down tight as a drum. I eventually gave up.

Jay, other than your preference for Jadot’s Amoureuses over Drouhin’s we’re almost perfectly aligned! I really like Drouhin’s Chambolle 1ers with age on them; I just opened a 2001 Baudes last week and it was a lovely wine. I do think they’re a bit tough to drink young due to the obvious oak treatment, but it integrates wonderfully.

My only quibbles are that Fourrier is still making Chambolle in Gevrey, and no one has ever opened a Barthod that’s that I’ve ever had.

[Greg_K]

Peter,
Indeed, I agree with you, Clos Vougeot is the grand cru I own and drink most bottles as it is a really relatively good QPR (we are in burgundy though…). But there are so many great grand crus… I hesitate to rank them (Not to mention I never drink RC or La Tache (except a glass of 08 which was great) as you have a lot of diversity within the same appelation and it would need a very large sampling to be able to draw serious conclusions.

Other question: Clos de beze does not get much love in this thread. Is it because you rate it as Chambertin (as can be) or rate it lower than top Grand crus?

Perceptions may be somewhat askew because Rousseau’s Chambertin is widely considered better than their Beze, and Rousseau is Rousseau, but elsewhere Beze is widely considered better than Chambertin. I wish I had more experience to have a firm opinion on the former (so won’t opine on whether that marvelous Chambertin label is a factor…). But on the other side of the ledger it seems revealing that if you own both Chambertin and Beze you are legally allowed to mix them together and call them Chambertin but you cannot mix them together and call them Beze. Either way, either one of them is certainly capable of making Burgundy at the absolute highest levels when all circumstances permit.

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I’ll slightly continue the hijack by suggesting that people who have a preference for Chambertin over Musigny have a preference for Rousseau’s Chambertin. Which, I can understand. Because other than Rousseau, who actually makes a great Chambertin*? Trapet in recent years, Duroche makes a miniscule amount, and…? Whereas just about everyone makes a really good or great Musigny (well, other than the usual suspect), though I’ve not had the Faiveley version.


*Yes, yes, I know, Leroy makes a Chambertin, but for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

[Jean_Menwa]

Peter,
Indeed, I agree with you, Clos Vougeot is the grand cru I own and drink most bottles as it is a really relatively good QPR (we are in burgundy though…). But there are so many great grand crus… I hesitate to rank them (Not to mention I never drink RC or La Tache (except a glass of 08 which was great) as you have a lot of diversity within the same appelation and it would need a very large sampling to be able to draw serious conclusions.

Other question: Clos de beze does not get much love in this thread. Is it because you rate it as Chambertin (as can be) or rate it lower than top Grand crus?

Perceptions may be somewhat askew because Rousseau’s Chambertin is widely considered better than their Beze, and Rousseau is Rousseau, but elsewhere Beze is widely considered better than Chambertin. I wish I had more experience to have a firm opinion on the former (so won’t opine on whether that marvelous Chambertin label is a factor…). But on the other side of the ledger it seems revealing that if you own both Chambertin and Beze you are legally allowed to mix them together and call them Chambertin but you cannot mix them together and call them Beze. Either way, either one of them is certainly capable of making Burgundy at the absolute highest levels when all circumstances permit.

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I’ll slightly continue the hijack by suggesting that people who have a preference for Chambertin over Musigny have a preference for Rousseau’s Chambertin. Which, I can understand. Because other than Rousseau, who actually makes a great Chambertin*? Trapet in recent years, Duroche makes a miniscule amount, and…? Whereas just about everyone makes a really good or great Musigny (well, other than the usual suspect), though I’ve not had the Faiveley version.


*Yes, yes, I know, Leroy makes a Chambertin, but for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

One of the best wines I’ve had in my life was a Leroy Chambertin.

[Jean_Menwa]

Perceptions may be somewhat askew because Rousseau’s Chambertin is widely considered better than their Beze, and Rousseau is Rousseau, but elsewhere Beze is widely considered better than Chambertin. I wish I had more experience to have a firm opinion on the former (so won’t opine on whether that marvelous Chambertin label is a factor…). But on the other side of the ledger it seems revealing that if you own both Chambertin and Beze you are legally allowed to mix them together and call them Chambertin but you cannot mix them together and call them Beze. Either way, either one of them is certainly capable of making Burgundy at the absolute highest levels when all circumstances permit.

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I’ll slightly continue the hijack by suggesting that people who have a preference for Chambertin over Musigny have a preference for Rousseau’s Chambertin. Which, I can understand. Because other than Rousseau, who actually makes a great Chambertin*? Trapet in recent years, Duroche makes a miniscule amount, and…? Whereas just about everyone makes a really good or great Musigny (well, other than the usual suspect), though I’ve not had the Faiveley version.


*Yes, yes, I know, Leroy makes a Chambertin, but for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

One of the best wines I’ve had in my life was a Leroy Chambertin…wasn’t as “beefy” meat stock-ey as Rousseau’s

[Andrew_K]

Speaking of CM, I picked up a few 2002 Drouhin CM 1er from Blacksmith that just arrived this week. Popped one tonight and it was everything I hoped. This is why we cellar wine folks! Double decant off the sediment to drive to the restaurant. Fully mature and developed, oak fully integrated, silky smooth and luscious mouthfeel. I was in love and drank almost the entire bottle, but managed to save a glass for tomorrow, but I can’t imagine it will be any better.

[Brady_Daniels]

Anyone have the arnoux Chambolle lately?

Chambolle AC is my favorite village wine. Some of my favorites are Hudelot and Jouan.

I had a 17 Jouan Chambolle tonight, delicious as always. Still, I find it more Jouan lucious red fruit than Chambolle. That’s not a bad thing because I love Jouan, but I’m far from confident that I’d call it Chambolle blind, as opposed to, say, Morey.

I think Hudelot Baillet, Bertheau, and Mugnier are more Chambolle’ish. Barthod and Roumier too, if you are very patient.

[William_Kelley]

Perceptions may be somewhat askew because Rousseau’s Chambertin is widely considered better than their Beze, and Rousseau is Rousseau, but elsewhere Beze is widely considered better than Chambertin. I wish I had more experience to have a firm opinion on the former (so won’t opine on whether that marvelous Chambertin label is a factor…). But on the other side of the ledger it seems revealing that if you own both Chambertin and Beze you are legally allowed to mix them together and call them Chambertin but you cannot mix them together and call them Beze. Either way, either one of them is certainly capable of making Burgundy at the absolute highest levels when all circumstances permit.

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I’ll slightly continue the hijack by suggesting that people who have a preference for Chambertin over Musigny have a preference for Rousseau’s Chambertin. Which, I can understand. Because other than Rousseau, who actually makes a great Chambertin*? Trapet in recent years, Duroche makes a miniscule amount, and…? Whereas just about everyone makes a really good or great Musigny (well, other than the usual suspect), though I’ve not had the Faiveley version.


*Yes, yes, I know, Leroy makes a Chambertin, but for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

One of the best wines I’ve had in my life was a Leroy Chambertin.

Yeah, honestly, the Leroy Chambertin is routinely quite spectacular!

Dugat-Py’s micro cuvée is also a very special wine.

But it’s clearly easier to buy e.g. great Charmes-Chambertin, where one is spoilt for choice in a variety of styles, than Chambertin itself.

[Stan_Y]

Anyone have the arnoux Chambolle lately?

Chambolle AC is my favorite village wine. Some of my favorites are Hudelot and Jouan.

I had a 17 Jouan Chambolle tonight, delicious as always. Still, I find it more Jouan lucious red fruit than Chambolle. That’s not a bad thing because I love Jouan, but I’m far from confident that I’d call it Chambolle blind, as opposed to, say, Morey.

My '17 Jouans just arrived last week…Morey VV, Sorbe, and CSD. Can’t wait to try one, it’s been a few years since I bought these…William had such nice notes along with all the good comments here.

[Greg_K]

I’ll slightly continue the hijack by suggesting that people who have a preference for Chambertin over Musigny have a preference for Rousseau’s Chambertin. Which, I can understand. Because other than Rousseau, who actually makes a great Chambertin*? Trapet in recent years, Duroche makes a miniscule amount, and…? Whereas just about everyone makes a really good or great Musigny (well, other than the usual suspect), though I’ve not had the Faiveley version.


*Yes, yes, I know, Leroy makes a Chambertin, but for all intents and purposes it may as well not exist.

One of the best wines I’ve had in my life was a Leroy Chambertin.

Yeah, honestly, the Leroy Chambertin is routinely quite spectacular!

Dugat-Py’s micro cuvée is also a very special wine.

But it’s clearly easier to buy e.g. great Charmes-Chambertin, where one is spoilt for choice in a variety of styles, than Chambertin itself.

It’s not that I don’t think Leroy’s would be great, it’s that I can never seem to find one in my wine fridge when I want to drink one.

[Andrew_K]

My '17 Jouans just arrived last week…Morey VV, Sorbe, and CSD.

Where were you still getting 17s? My 18 CM VV and CSD just arrived last week.

[Pat_Martin]

Had my Chambolle epiphany recently (I know, what took me so long)… the 2017 Felettig Chambolle Gruenchers. It was really a sensational wine, already drinking very well. I immediately ran out and bought some more of the 17 and some 19 pre-arrivals too.

Is Felettig still considered an up-and-comer (as I heard) or is the secret fully out?

[Andrew_K]

Prices are still on the lower side for 18 and 19, so they may have gone up, but still seem a bit under the radar.

[Greg_K]

Had my Chambolle epiphany recently (I know, what took me so long)… the 2017 Felettig Chambolle Gruenchers. It was really a sensational wine, already drinking very well. I immediately ran out and bought some more of the 17 and some 19 pre-arrivals too.

Is Felettig still considered an up-and-comer (as I heard) or is the secret fully out?

An up and comer, especially if you’ve been reading William
Their distribution is still a bit wonky in the US but until recently you could find their 13s at discount (and they’re drinking great now). Felettig has great holdings, so if you like the style (and I do), they’re a great buy going forward.

[MSemler]

Had my Chambolle epiphany recently (I know, what took me so long)… the 2017 Felettig Chambolle Gruenchers. It was really a sensational wine, already drinking very well. I immediately ran out and bought some more of the 17 and some 19 pre-arrivals too.

Is Felettig still considered an up-and-comer (as I heard) or is the secret fully out?

An up and comer, especially if you’ve been reading William
Their distribution is still a bit wonky in the US but until recently you could find their 13s at discount (and they’re drinking great now). Felettig has great holdings, so if you like the style (and I do), they’re a great buy going forward.

How would you describe the style?

[Craig_G]

Sorry for continuing the hijack of the Chambolle thread. I’ll add that Musigny is obviously better than Bonnes Mares, duh.

I love Bonnes Mares and own more of it than any other grand cru but even I would not argue otherwise.

All the Burgundies I own are worse than the ones I don’t.

[Greg_K]

Had my Chambolle epiphany recently (I know, what took me so long)… the 2017 Felettig Chambolle Gruenchers. It was really a sensational wine, already drinking very well. I immediately ran out and bought some more of the 17 and some 19 pre-arrivals too.

Is Felettig still considered an up-and-comer (as I heard) or is the secret fully out?

An up and comer, especially if you’ve been reading William
Their distribution is still a bit wonky in the US but until recently you could find their 13s at discount (and they’re drinking great now). Felettig has great holdings, so if you like the style (and I do), they’re a great buy going forward.

How would you describe the style?

Darker fruit than say, Bertheau or Mugnier, some but not too much oak, no stems usually (but with some exceptions) and good depth. Reminds me honestly of a more “chambolle” version of Lignier, if that makes sense (who does make chambolle, which is why I make that comparison). Redder fruit than Lignier though.