I’ve heard this so many times (mostly in relation to European winemakers), but I’ve never heard it come from the mouth (or keyboard) of the winemakers. Usually it comes from retailers with their internet descriptions.
So, is it true?
Even if not true for your bottling, is it considered common in the industry and do you definitely know this is done at wineries around you?
Is it pretty much a “Euro thing”?
Is it marketing BS and juice is just juice?
Always been curious about this, so anyone (ITB or not) that could offer insight would be helpful.
Chris
No, never heard of anyone doing this. I have heard and seen griping about dealing with changeover during bottling from standard bottles to nonstandard. Calibrating fills and like that. I can’t imagine changing the line to the “good” wine at that point.
I see this done in Oregon somewhat. Several wineries bottle their special label stuff or most in demand sv wine in some large formats.
Maggie bottles her large format PN with her Botanica label, that is the best of the best barrels. I noticed that Dick Shea also does large formats with his Homer label. Of course I have a few of each!
Never heard of the juice put in to the large formats being any different than that put in the 750s.
I have never heard of it either. It seems like it would be counter productive if you are calling the wine in the different formats the same thing on the label.
FWIW, this is a popular alluded description used by Garagiste to describe large format Italian wines. I often wonder if it is really worth the trouble or a smart business decision if true.
Chris
FWIW, I have heard the same rumblings about better juice being bottled in the larger formats. Makes sense to me that since they are held onto longer and are generally allocated to restaurants or higher end customers that this might make some sense…almost a hedge against a bad bottle being opened for a special gathering that warrants a big bottle. I of course could be wrong, but it sounds good.
I don’t agree, at least with the producers I have seen and worked for. The wine from the same tanks that are getting bottled in 750s go into mags and larger formats. Maybe with more wine in the bottle the cork has less effect (unless a TCA tainted bottle) leading to more “pure” flavors.
The flipside in some cases, is that smaller wineries may bottle the large formats by hand rather than the traditional bottling line leading to bottles that may not get the right vacuum before the cork goes in (or enough gas to push all the oxygen out of the bottle) or an improperly hand corked bottle.
Dennis, yes, some producers will do special bottlings in mags and label them accordingly. I think the original post was questioning whether better wine goes into magnums without any distinction being made on the label. That I’m afraid is total myth. Wineries typically go to great lengths to ensure proper mixing of barrels before bottling, so there’s not variation in the blend. Maybe if a producer bottles barrel by barrel, you might see something like that. But that’s got to be exceedingly rare if it happens at all.
From the wineries I have visited so far in France, Germany and Switzerland,
only two explained that practice.
Though I wouldn´t say it is different wines, it is just maybe that one of the barrels is
a degree better than the others and that would then go into the mags.
In the Champagne I had one producer explain to me that the first juice that comes out
of the press (is that called free run juice?) would be destined for the magnums. I wonder
now how actually they handle that in practice, do they seperate this juice from the rest?
Cheers
Christian
Vincent - You are correct that I was not referring to special bottlings that are labeled as such, but just as a matter of principle.
Christian - That sounds like what I’ve heard/read. But, based on your information, it sounds like it happens a lot less frequently than retailers may insinuate. And, it doesn’t sound like it’s common, if at all, with the American producers. I would imagine that in our more overt marketing environment, American producers would seize upon the opportunity to market those bottles as a special wine with a designated label.
From a personal viewpoint, I rarely have use for a larger format, so if I have a choice and I’m not looking at ever potentially reselling, I would choose the 750’s (or 375’s). I do have a modest amount of large format wines for special occasions, but I don’t actively seek it out normally. The responses so far put my mind at ease that except in rare situations, I’m getting the same juice in all formats.
Thanks!
Chris
I thought wineries generally blended all the barrels of a wine in a tank in advance of bottling.
I know that mags of sparkling wines tend to be aged on the yeast longer than the equivalent 750s, but that’s all.
Generally correct. They generally blend all the barrels selected for the final blend into a tank or two for the final bottling. Usually a few days to a week prior to bottling to allow the wine to mesh. Some barrels may be left out b/c they just didn’t work for the final blend.
I know wineries that specifically separate free run juice from press juice, treating the free run as better quality. In the same vain, I know winemakers that leave head space in the barrels from the free run so they can specifically add back an equal proportion of press juice to each barrel, thus homogenizing the lot.
I have seen Garagiste refer to their sources as having bottled Magnums with the best of the barrels, but haven’t heard that from a winemaker directly yet, so who knows if it is hype or not. I think a lot depends on the size of the operation (ie ability to blend all barrels into a SS tank prior to bottling), philosophy of the winemaker, whether they are personally striving for a special cuvee nature, etc. Probably best just to get to know your winery/winemaker and ask before you buy.
I’ve worked at a few of wineries in both CA and OR. In all cases, wine to be bottled was racked into a large blending tank. We usually ran the 750s first and then did the magnums, but they all went through the same bottling line and the wine came from the same tank. Larger (than magnum) format bottles were bottled and corked by hand (the larger corks didn’t work in the automatic corker). We always kept the press wine separate. Some might be added back during blending/racking, but there was usually a surplus which was either sold off or went into a low end, one-off bottling.
Great Question. I have heard often of special cuvees made in smaller batches for submittal to wine critics and that goes to special upscale restaurants. There are stories of some of this wine finding its way into large format also. These wines would not be special labeled because they were made for marketing purposes in the first place.
I have quite a few mags. Wines that I deem as special and that will age over an extended period. I buy in mag for special occasions for years out. Using the word ever, I don’t believe I have ever bought a young wine in large format that I intended to drink within ten (10) years of purchase.
As a retailer the only thing I’ve heard/said is that the large formats seem to keep the wine longer, i.e. ages slower in the bottle, thus outlasting 750s and 375s for long term storage. Years ago I would get aging 375s cheap. They were great when first poured and dead at the last sip. Likewise, we’ve also had some pretty old magnums of wine that needed more time, when the same vintage 750 was a goner.
What exactly does this have to do with the question of whether wineries put different wine in the mags?
I’ve never heard of this before. This raises a lot of questions. Wine critics getting special cuvees? Is this in lieu of the “real” wine? Anyone from Oregon that doing this? What are the “special” upscale restaurants? If you were bottling something special, why wouldn’t you label it as such (it wouldn’t that expensive or time consuming with the TTB)? If it’s bottled in standard bottles I suppose it could bottled in magnums too. I wonder if any of the wine makers on the Board are willing to comment.
Rick;
Back a couple of years ago or so, Laube at WS wrote a rather blistering blog with this as part of this subject. He found that wine some submitted for review, from unnamed wineries, in no way resembled the same labeled wines available to the public. Even a possibility of slight bottle variation would not explain the differences. From his comments there seemed to have been repercussions for these actions. Part of those conversations evolved into that some of the “creme de creme” restaurant would often receive the same special juice. Laube does CA, so that doesn’t point figures anywhere else, but one does wonder about what what really goes on.
Perhaps an innocent comment or a honest disclosure but I did hear a winemaker once say " just got finished (preparing) the wine to be sent out to WS and WA". My wife asked later “What did she mean by “prepare”, what is there to prepare other than sticking a couple bottles in a box?” One only wonders.