Large Formats = Best Juice????

[Tony_V_e_l_e_b_i_l]

I think we are getting somewhat muddled in this thread as their seems to be several issues going on so here’s my take (from experience with CA producers).

1. Regular bottling is the same as the large formats. Once barrels are selected for a certain wine, that wine is moved from those barrels into a bottling tank (or a couple of bottling tanks). Magnums and larger are bottled straight from those tanks either by hand or by bottling line. The 750’s are bottled from the same tank. Result = no difference in “quality” of the wine.

2. Special Cuvee’s: yes some bottle special cuvees for auctions, restaurants, a few VIP’s, etc. This wine may or may not be “better” than the regular bottling. It could be from the same wine that goes into the regular bottling but labeled differently or it could be from a single barrel or a few barrels. Either way it is “different” than the regular cuvee. Not necessarily better. Or it could be a completely random blend. Say the producer bottles a Syrah and Cab separately but decide to bottle a Syrah Cab blend for the magnum for the special cuvee. This blend isn’t available to the general republic but is blended for whatever purpose it is blended.

3. Fooling the Critic I don’t see what this has to do with the question of large formats = best juice, which was the question originally posed. First of all, most wineries that I know of don’t submit “large format” wines to the critics for review. They submit 750s. Do some submit bottles that may not be representative of the bottling that most consumers have access to, probably, but my bet is that is a very small group. I have not seen nor do I believe that is a widespread practice (Sierra Carche debacle not withstanding).

[Gordon_Fitz]

Tony;

Sorry for the thread drift. I agree overall with your assessment of the situation. In the far vast majority of bottlings there is no difference in the wine placed in large formats or into 750s.

Bottle variation seems to hit a nerve with some, but that is slightly off thread.

Gordon

[Linda_Baehr]

@Rick Allen

@Gordon Fitz

Great Question. I have heard often of special cuvees made in smaller batches for submittal to wine critics and that goes to special upscale restaurants. There are stories of some of this wine finding its way into large format also. These wines would not be special labeled because they were made for marketing purposes in the first place.

I’ve never heard of this before. This raises a lot of questions. Wine critics getting special cuvees? Is this in lieu of the “real” wine? Anyone from Oregon that doing this? What are the “special” upscale restaurants? If you were bottling something special, why wouldn’t you label it as such (it wouldn’t that expensive or time consuming with the TTB)? If it’s bottled in standard bottles I suppose it could bottled in magnums too. I wonder if any of the wine makers on the Board are willing to comment.

As I said earlier, I think it would be a silly practice. It would be deceptive IMO. So someone drinks a wine for the first time out of mag, likes it, and goes and buys a case of 750’s, and they realize it isn’t the wine they originally enjoyed? Bait and switch I say.

[Terence_T-Bone_Livingston]

It’s always more fun opening up and sharing a large format bottle with friends. So yes, the juice will taste better.

It’s all in the perception at that stage of the game.

[Gregory_Dal_Piaz]

I know of one producer who makes wines from a single grape, but blends vineyards for his standard bottlings. He has bottled mags with the juice from a specific cask once he completes his blends. The mags are single vineyard bottlings and only the best juice. The rest he bottles as a more generic juice.

[Vincent_Fritzsche]

Well, well, well. The other night at an event, I spoke with someone who mentioned that a prominent local producer recently brought a magnum to a tasting and explained how it was from a special barrel and bottled separately. Maybe this is like learning a new word and suddenly seeing it everywhere. However, I believe the producer was clear that the bottling was for himself and perhaps select customers. It’s not like any old magnum from the producer you find is “special” wine. Still, this was new to me.

[Steve_M_c_C_a_l_l]

@Vincent Fritzsche

Well, well, well. The other night at an event, I spoke with someone who mentioned that a prominent local producer recently brought a magnum to a tasting and explained how it was from a special barrel and bottled separately. Maybe this is like learning a new word and suddenly seeing it everywhere. However, I believe the producer was clear that the bottling was for himself and perhaps select customers. It’s not like any old magnum from the producer you find is “special” wine. Still, this was new to me.

I think now is an appropriate time for us all to contemplate the wisdom of Brad Swallow’s signature quote.

[Tim_Keller]

I agree with most of the above. I have never put any wine into a large format bottle that wasnt out of the same tank we were putting into 750’s.

THAT SAID.

I do think that there is merit to the thought that larger formats might give better quality wine, and MOSTLY due to the post-bottling oxidation that is allowed by the cork. While the oxygen delivered by any given cork is all over the place, their trend is towards an oxygen level that we might not consider optimal for most wines. (I can point to the numbers if anyone is geeky enough)

With a larger format bottle, that same oxygen transmission has to act on a lot more wine volume, so you effectivley slow down how that wine develops in the bottle by half when you move from a 750 to a Mag.

(at the same time if you use a half bottle you are speeding it up by 2x)

Again, every bottle will be different because every cork is different, but from the numbers I’ve seen a slower aging process for reds might give a better quality wine and THAT might give credence to this myth. - Its not that wineries put the best juice in the bigger bottles, its that those wines might develop better over time than their 750 counterparts.