Jay S. Miller Right On Top Of That S.A. Wine Market

WINE TALK
41

Dulce de Leche is here, Gene. A gourmet store in my town has it. We used it for Crepes…excellent…

Bob,

The criticism is of a wine critic, criticizing a wine that

  1. He has never tasted
  2. He thinks is a new brand, but has been around for 12 years

How a wine critic, who admittedly, does not taste blind, could review this wine with no bias, is beyond me…

42

Based on those who tasted/drank wine with B Jay, his palate is very close to Bob and very consistent. The issue that I see is he gets into trouble way too often, mostly his own doing. IMHO, most BBers both in ERP and Berserkers are extra critical when it comes to him a la Pierre Rovani in his ERP days. I feel that it is unfair as frustration and anger towards Mark, another moderator (any criticism will be dealt with a heavy hand) and Bob (no one dare) get dished out on him.

43

Kevin

Tack on the fact that his tasting notes are utterly worthless and you are getting somewhere.

I have no doubt that Miller has a good palate, as I have said it before. I do doubt that you can be a good wine critic, if you cannot take good notes.

44

Got you but I still think people have definitely love for some critics and hate for others.

45

On Kevin’s point there are two distinct aspects of being a wine critic (or better, a wine journalist). Knowing about wine and knowing about how to write about it. As many of us who have written the odd tasting note have realized, it is much harder to say something interesting about what’s in the glass in words than it is to sit around and talk about the wine. I have no problem believing that JSM has a palate that is perfectly calibrated with RMP and that when they taste together they produce scores that are virtually identical. And if JSM only did Rhones, California Cabs and Bordeaux, his scores would be a good proxy for RMP, and he could more or less replace RMP without much loss.

But that is not his assignment. He is doing parts of the world that he knows little about and in which he appears to take little interest. If you review wines from places that you do not know, that are changing rapidly, you are going to make huge mistakes. You would be very dependent on your information sources for indications on who is doing good work and who has a track record.

To make the situation much worse, JSM appears to lack the journalistic gene. He speaks incautiously, making blanket statements without any evidence to back them up. RMP has spent a lot of time tasting wine and visiting wine regions and has often shown a journalist’s sensibility when someone tells him something that may not be true. But as I have noted elsewhere, he seems to have poor judgment at selecting people to work with and these choices have caused him a lot of trouble in the last few years.

46

WHAT???

A group of us tasted at your place a series of wines Miller rated VERY highly, and no one in the group, including the avowed Jay Miller Fan Club Members (you know who you are), could reconcile the wines in the glasses with the reviews Miller wrote and the scores he gave for MOST of those wines. There were numerous wines Miller rated in the mid to high 90s that were considered undrinkable by more than 80% of the people around the table. Good Palate? I knew my palate and his had little in common before the tasting, but after? No brainer.

47

I have no personal beef with Jay. It kills me however, when I read that his palate is perfectly calibrated with Parker’s on New World wines. The Palate is not perfect, but when he used to review Aussie wines I was with him 95% of the time. My palate still aligns with Bob on better than 90% of California wines. When Jay came along, I had to stop buying Aussie wines based on his recs because I was wasting money. Sure he still got it right on Mitolo, Amon Ra, and the likes, but any one of us could have done that. Bob already liked them. His comments about Argentina are stupid, sure but completely irrelevant. I dont mind the bashing, but in order to ameliorate it a lot of you are saying “he has a good palate” and I just think that is
[bullshit.gif] His palate is about as proven as my remedy for obesity.
BTW if Tanzer said something like that Id be more inclined to scrutinize it. He isn’t fond of saying stupid shit, so I would wonder where it came from. To take Jay to task on yet another stupid comment is well…fun for some I guess.

48

Kevin, there is little in the animosity towards Schildknecht or Galloni or Martin-- people who comport themselves well. One of the problems may be that his palate is TOO close to Bob’s, and he has to review Spain and Australia. Even Parker has been bashed for his Aussie reviews and to a lesser extent, his Spanish reviews. So you are right, the angry mob is looking to burn a witch. But Miller is far from an innocent housewife in all this. He has brought much of it onto himself with his careless behavior. He has to realize that he has entered the public domain, and a very skeptical domain at that. And let’s face it, Parker’s dominance will never be replicated again. Not with the free exchange of information available today and the growing influence of user reviews.

49

Humberto

There are very wines that Parker reviewed and liked, that Miller reviewed and disliked…and vice versa.

50

Not sure about that. Allen Meadows has gained a lot of influence on Burgundy in a very short time. And, although Allen has a very different palate than does Robert Parker, he gained his influence in the same way – doing a better and more comprehensive job of covering what he was covering than anyone else.

51

Really? neener
Im sure you meant many, not very. I know that Dan. The point is that the majority of tasters at TWA have years of experience and proven palates. Noone can argue with Bob’s experience or Galloni’s etc. Those guys have countless discoveries (as in new wines and regions) great calls on wines that people doubted and so on. Where are Jay’s? How does anyone make the assertion that he has a good palate? Or the assertion that he even aligns with Parker? I gave up my subscription partially because of their assinine behavior but partially because I dont think Jay has a palate at all. He is making his living on this idea that he aligns perfectly with Parker, and for my tastes he does not. A few high profile agreements (Mollydooker being one of them btw, and I think he screwed the pooch with that because 06 and 07 were very inferior to 05, which Bob reviewed) and suddenly Jay aligns perfectly with Parker. GMAFB Unfortunately for me Australia, California and Spain are the bulk of my purchases, so take 2/3 out and you loose my subscription.

52

I don’t know about stopping, but you may want to actually taste the wine before you post the dissent. neener

53

But that was before you knew what you were talking about. [tease.gif]

54

Touche my friend…
In a recent blind tasting I MUCH preferred SQN Ode to E to 6 different Lalas…I just need my wines to have balls…I still like them Aussies… pileon

55

Jim,
I can’t comment on the Koonunga Hill – which BTW was a pretty good example of what it tried to be for my palate back in the 90s – but, I gotta’ tell you that I am drinking through my 1998 Peter Lehman and Elderton entry level shiraz that I bought in volume upon release when they were part of our daily quaffers. The need for variety and experimentation led me to leave a bunch of these types of wines for consumption “down the road.” The Lehmans were by and large (of course bottle by bottle variation) not a good experiment. They weren’t shot but, offered max pleasure at about age 2-4. The Eldertons on the other hand have been a revelation. For my palate, far, far better now then upon release. Shockingly good. Now I am not saying you were dissin’ all such wines as agers but, I am just sayin’ …

56

Humberto,

Have you been tasting the Aussies from 1996-2000?

Do you like them?

Parker would be gaving the same ratings as Miller on all of these new wines Miller is reviewing.

They are the same importers showing Miller wines that showed Parker wines.

If you do not believe me, why not ask Parker yourself. He has said on MULTIPLE occasions that he “tests” some of Miller’s reviews and they always come out similarly.

If you do not believe that, then you are calling Parker a liar.

57

First of all, I have no problem calling Parker a liar, we all lie when its convenient for us. Secondly, I have to disagree that Parker would give the 2006 COL a 96 to give you a specific example, in fact there is no way in hell, though they are many other examples. To clarify your question, I am drinking shiraz up to 2005, Jay didnt take over everything until 06, though I believe he rated the 05 Mitolo GAM and that was the first time I went uh oh, I believe he gave it a 95 + some generic note. Someone who is still paying for the service can check on this.
BTW, even if Parker was checking in on Miller, which I have a hard time believing given how much he has had his back lately, and he found a discrepancy, what do you think he would do? Change the score with an asterisk Jay is an idiot? It took what 2 months of slam over slam to get a disclaimer in the Carche score? pffft.
Oh and yeah, I go back to 96 with some Aussies.

58

Humberto

We will have to agree to disagree on that front.

Parker gave out high scores to awful Aussies…Miller continues the tradition…

59

Oh not so much disagreement there, unless you want to claim that everything he rated highly from Oz land sucked, in which case we just have fully disagreeing palates. Parker gives good scores to shitty wines from all countries. Its called palate divergence, Miller does the same. I was just taking issue specifically with “JSM has a great palate” by asking the question “for whom and how do you know?” and with the statement “JSM’s palate perfectly aligns with Parker’s.” If you think either of those are true, then we agree to disagree.
But youre wrong [wow.gif]

60

As you know, I did not say all Aussies suck.

And I agree about palate divergence as well. However, the percentage of shitty wines from Australia that got, and continue to receive, high scores, is much greater than any other wine region.

Couple that with Parker’s “retrospective” on Aussies in June…a way to pat himself on the back for a job well done, and it all makes me…want to vomit. [training.gif]

I have tasted many Aussies that are 10-15 years old. Most that I have had are terrible.