I’m just wondering if there are fans of either that think one region is superior to (or different from) the other. What are the terroir/producer issues involved in these regions? What are the peak expressions of Syrah?
Chris - it’s a very good question and I’ve done a few tastings designed to test exactly that. Get yourself ten or twelve wines from the same vintage, half from one region and half from the other, put them all into bags and pour into 12 glasses, not knowing which is which.
I’ve done it several times and frankly, can’t ID them for a damn. When the wines are young, you can sometimes guess and the Hermitage wines tend to be “bigger” in a sense, although nothing like a Shiraz from Barossa would be. But after a few years, they really close in on each other. A few years ago I thought that the addition of Viognier might matter but in truth, it doesn’t make much difference after a few years.
Far more important, at least in my quite limited experience, is the producer.
Some producers are just more “old school” funky than others, and if they produce in both regions, it’s more dramatic than any terroir difference.
But I’m very interested in hearing what others might say and hearing of specific examples. And IMHO, the only way to really understand the differences is to taste blind. If you can’t identify differences w/out recourse to the labels, then you can’t identify differences. It’s an example of how blind tasting can be a useful tool, esp if you have some knowledge going in.
Chris – You ask an extremely broad question – one that would take me pages and pages to answer. I suggest you get a copy of John Livingstone-Learmonth’s The Wines of the Northern Rhône and reading through it and then asking more precise questions that can be answered at shorter length.
Taste, taste taste. Trouble is there are only a handful of “good” producers in hermitage and more in Cote Rotie I’d say. But to generalize the wines of Hermitage are more masculine/brawny while those of the Cote more feminine. For me if picking blindly I’d go for CR but if JL Chave was the choice in Hermitage I’d almost always jump on that first. Lastly Hermitage reds re 100% Syrah and CR can have viogner added. In reality though most CRs do not have viogner and the lifted aromatics often (not always) come from the cooler climate rather than viogner. I’ve made plenty of sweeping generalizations here!
It’s not as common to include white wine in the blend in Hermitage, but red Hermitage is allowed to have up to 15% Marsanne and Roussanne.
-Al
Hi Al,
Last I heard nobody did that in practice. Anyone you know do the blend or ever tried one?
I’ve always wanted to but never found one…
Actually, viognier is used by most Cote Rotie producers in at least some of their bottlings. Livingston Learmonth says that the vineyards are planted only 95% syrah, and by implication 5% viognier. He gives the following figures for major producers, in general or for the particular cuvee listed:
Bernard - 0%
Barge - 5%
Bonnefonds - 8%-10% for Cote Roziers
Burgaud - 0%
Champet - 6% (of vineyard)
Chapoutier - 3% for Les Becasses
Clusel-Roch - 4% for regular bottling
Yves Cuilleron - 10% for Bassenon cuvee
Pierre Gaillard - 20% (!) for Les Vialleres cuvee for the U.S.
Gangloff - 10% for Barbarine cuvee
Gerin - 10% for Champin cuvee
Guigal - 5% for Brune & Blonde; 11% for La Mouline; 7% for La Turque; 0% for La Landonne
Jasmin - 4%-5%
Levet - 0%
Rostaing - 3%-5% for Brune & Blonde
Vidal-Fleury - 3%-5% for Brune & Blonde
Yes, it’s uncommon as I mentioned. Marc Sorrel has a plot in Le Greal that has Marsanne interplanted with the Syrah and they are fermented together. I think his Le Greal can be around 10% Marsanne. Off the top of my head, I don’t have other examples. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there were small amounts of the white grapes interplanted here and there.
-Al
Livingston Learmonth says that Sorrel uses about 5% marsanne and that Texier’s Hermitage can contain 5%-10% roussane. Other than that, I don’t see any figures for individual producers. “Apparently, few growers ever use much more than 5% marsanne in their red Hermitage,” LL says, which suggests that small additions aren’t unheard of.
Thanks all. It’s not like a need another excuse to enlarge the collection, but I really seem to like these wines. It does seem odd to me to add white wine to the Syrah, but who knows? Has anyone tried any 2010s from these areas or Cornas?
When I smell a Guigal La Mouline I understand why the Viognier is added. Aromatic fireworks in a glass! For me, the most interesting nose of any wine I have had.
Cote Rotie and Hermitage are different expressions of Syrah. I enjoy both, but my preference leans to Cote Rotie. The wines have brighter, fresher, often more refined, exotic and sensuous profile. They also drink better at a younger age. I might break it down a bit further, adding that more often than not, but not all the time, I prefer Cote Rotie from Cote Blonde, instead of Cote Brune, for the same reasons.
OK, will do. Is that the best book on the wines? Others?
After you’ve read JLL’s tome all others are pretty much irrelevant.
What Salil said.
Every wine region should be so lucky as the Rhone, to have a book of the quality of LL’s.
That’s an awesome book. I second this. Great read, goes into detail the soil content of the regions and what really makes every region different.
As far as I´m concerned Marc Sorrel uses a tiny % of Marsanne in his Le Greal …
In general:
I´d say that I´m definitely capable of distiguishing a TYPICAL Cote-Rotie from a TYPICAL Hermitage.
Taking e.g. a Cote-blonde from Rostaing - and a H Chave might be textbook examples.
CR is usually more perfumed, more fragrant, with hints of black olives, bacon and smoked meat, more raspberries than cherries, more violets than roses, more spices than herbs - and usually a more perceptible acidity (depending on the vintage).
H usually shows less fragrant, more compact, more solid, with more green (than black) olives, more sour cherries, more mushrooms, more bloody meat, often hints of red (blood) oranges, more herbs than (exotic) spices … more perceptable tannin than acidity (depending …)
Over the time I´d say that H is definitely more ageworthy than CR, and in consequence less accessable in its youth …
Sure, if you take a powerful example of CR (let´s say Burgaud) from a strong year - and compare it with a lighter style of H (e.g. Graillot) - or a modern styled H like Remizieres with CR Gerin … one can easily get confused …
M preferences?
CR with 5 to 15/20 years, H with 15 to 30+ years.
Gerhard, you nailed it with your description!
I just had a Rostaing La Landonne 2006: black olvies, more black olives, dark berries, smoked bacon, but also exotic floral notes and spices. Very elegant and not closed at all, but very youthful and persisting, with excellent grip and long aftertaste, in need of another 3-5 years cellaring.
I will open an Hermitage soon to compare … have to think about which one …
Gerhard,
This is really a very good description of each wine.
And very much in phase with my perception of each.
Bravo
Cheers
Eric