Some time ago I bought some bottles from a retailer east of the Mississippi, requesting they hold the wine for fall shipping weather. Got an acknowledgment of that, all was well until about a week ago, when I suddenly received an email shipping notice, with tracking number (for ground shipping, which is what I paid for). Of course I immediately contacted them, got a response that they had screwed up, would call back the package. Another problem was that the delivery was to my home address, not wine storage facility, which now comes into play. We’re away on vacation this week, and neighbors picking up our mail saw the fedex delivery tag two days ago. I immediately notified the retailer again (though this time I haven’t received a response from them). Fedex tried to deliver again yesterday, and I finally logged in and put a hold on the package at the nearest Fedex location.
Obviously I’m not going to accept the wine, but I have two questions: should I allow the wine to be sent back, knowing there’s the possibility it might be sold to someone else (I haven’t seen the bottles yet, so don’t know their condition, if there’s obvious leakage, etc.). Second, I’m now uncomfortable taking delivery from this retailer at all. Am I out of line to ask to cancel this order completely?
Aug 11 update: I picked up the wine at the local Fedex store, have now opened and inspected all the bottles. No sign of leakage, all the capsules spin. Most of the bottles have pretty high fill, which implies they didn’t see any extreme heat conditions. They are some Weinbach Riesling and Gewurz, and a couple bottles of Vietti Barbera. All wines that I will probably drink within 5 years. At this point, I will probably just keep them. What would you do?
If I were you I would open the package an inspect the bottles before being returned, notice any signature that might set them apart from other bottles of the like.
I would ask to have them picked up and re shipped when the weather is right.
If you notice that those same bottles had been reshipped to you I would cxl the order and out them on this board. If not then no harm no foul.
People mess up all the time in business, give them a chance to make it right, if they do them great, if not then never do business with them again, but I would at least give the them the opportunity to make it right.
Alan, that’s commendable to be concerned for someone who might get stuck with the wine you refused. Most people would be happy just getting their money back. If inspected, and there is no obvious leakage, how would you suspect there was damage? For that matter, how would anyone? From my experience working in both, most wine that gets sent back to retailers or wineries (without outward signs of damage) is fine.
Doug - I guess knowing that the wine spent 5 days driving across country in the summer, then has been out for four days inside a Fedex truck in Bay Area temps (not brutal, but plenty warm), before getting delivered to a local Fedex store, makes my nervous. Are you saying it’s your belief that if there wasn’t enough heat to cause obvious leakage, there wasn’t enough to cause any damage? I do agree that wine is sturdier than most of us think, but I’d be a lot happier to have received this in the fall.
So what would cooked wine taste like? I hear stewed mentioned but don’t know that I’ve had stewed fruit to know what it tastes like. I had a similar problem last week. A BIG producer shipped wine to me after I had put on the order “Hold until cooler temperatures this fall. Probably early November in Tennessee”. I was told they check temperatures carefully en route and that I should have been more specific if I wanted the wine held (???). It was shipped 3 day but I am out of my office on Fridays, so I didn’t get the wine on Friday and it sat on the truck over the weekend in 90+ temps. Got it on Monday when it was 95 degrees. Wine felt warm but not hot. I can see the cork below the capsule and don’t notice any wine streaks up the corks and the corks aren’t leaking or protruded. I tried one of the CA cabs and it is a bit dull, but I wasn’t planning to drink for a year or two. I got 6 cabs and 6 zins. What do you think? The winery would probably replace the bottles if I asked them, but I don’t know for sure that they are damaged.
I don’t think all heat damaged wines will show evidence that can be seen on inspection. I also think some of the effects take some time to appear, ie you can’t necessarily tell by immediately popping a bottle. Finally, in addition to other effects, exposure to heat fluctuations may use up some of the SO2 in the wine leaving less to help preserve it in the future. Having said all of that, I tend to be less uptight about shipping than many folks. I try to minimize problems (eg, asking for delays, upgrading shipping methods), but don’t stress like some folks.
As far as preventing the shipment from being returned, if you refuse the shipment I wouldn’t think it was properly up to you to determine what happens to the bottles.
I had to deal with receiving/rejecting wine that was overheated during shipment recently. The wine got warm enough that it went up the sides of the cork and out the top…on some bottles at least. I became curious about exactly how warm the wine got. I did some digging around google and found the following website that allows you to calculate such things:
This wants three inputs: Final Volume, Initial Volume and the ‘volumetric expansion coefficent’.
The initial volume is 750 ml (select milliliters in the drop down).
For the final volume, measure the distance between the the top of the wine and the bottom of the cork in inches (you’ll need to remove the foil to do this of course). Multiply the number of inches by 7.25 (to get the number of milliliters of the space between the top of the wine and the bottom of the cork) and add 750. For example, if there’s 1 inch of space between the top of wine and bottom of cork then your final volume is 757.25…or if there’s 0.5 inches of space then the final volume is 753.625.
The ‘volumetric expansion coefficent’ for wine is 0.000414.
Press ‘Calculate’. Add the temp listed in the ‘Other Units’ section to the current temp of the wine. Lo and behold, your wine got up to that temp. It probably got a bit hotter than that because the final volume is under estimated a bit due to the sides of the bottle flaring out a bit…but it’s a pretty good guage.
For example, if the wine is currently at 60 degrees and there’s 1/2 inch of space between the top of the wine and the bottom of the cork then the wine got up to 81 degrees.
Note that this only applies to situations where the wine went up the sides of the cork…without that, there’s no way (that I can think of) to determine the final volume with any accuracy.
As Al mentions (IMO correctly) above, wine doesn’t necessarily show signs of damage immediately. Indeed, mistakes happen. However, when you specifically requested the wine to be held and it wasn’t, I would return the bottles, explaining the situation. If you said ship it, that risk is on you. I don’t think you should eat someone else’s mistake, though. Even if the wine isn’t damaged, it might be and you intentionally and specifically tried to avoid that risk. All just my opinion, of course.
You’re saying that buying/accepting wine that’s been 5 days of 90+ degrees should be expected? I’m probably misunderstanding…maybe we’re talking about <$15 daily drinkers here, or the new super insulated that include cold packs summer shippers (I just got a few of these…they’re rated for 3 days, but probably ok for 5 unless you’re going through Phoenix, which lots and lots of things do). Otherwise that’s not a reasonable expectation imo. Sure mistakes happen, but this sort of heat treatment this should be corrected.
I’m saying that it’s extremely common for wine to be mishandled and the customer never know. Whether it’s at the retail level, distribution, importation or even at the winery. If it’s the retailer’s fault, yes they should correct it. But if a winery forgets a few palates of wine outside for the weekend and decide they should go ahead and sell it, the only people that know work at the winery.
I’m just saying you can’t guarantee provenance at all, and I’d venture to say that the vast majority of wine is treated in a way that a discerning customer would not want to pay for said wine. But back to the main point of this thread, 5 days of 90+ degrees is probably not abnormal for any wine that’s shipped away from it’s production area.
The initial fill doesn’t matter for this. What matters is the wine had to have gone up the cork…which gives you a reference point for the wine at it’s warmest…and of course the current level and temp.
The difference between the bottom of the cork and the current fill level is due to the change in temp.
Thanks, Eric, I see why the initial fill doesn’t matter, but I still have questions. Which probably means I have way too much time on my hands or I’m avoiding real work.
How do we know that the initial volume is 750 ml? Not every bottle holds exactly 750 ml when full with a cork in it. Add to that the possibility that the cork gets pushed out a little when a bottle gets hot. Maybe before the wine starts to leak.
Since we’re estimating initial volume, I wondered if a few ml difference in the volume change produces much change in the result. I ran a couple of examples. A 3 ml change in volume (753 vs. 750) returns a 17 degree (F) temperature change. If we were off in our estimate of initial volume by 2 ml, which seems plausible given bottle and cork dimension variability from one producer to another, a 5 ml change (753 vs. 748: we think the bottle holds 750 ml so our 753 ml estimate is unchanged, but initial volume really was 748 ml) returns a 29 degree (F) temperature change. Pretty big difference.
Assuming the equation is right and “the wine goes up the cork” because of heat and expansion, I don’t think that necessarily means the wine expanded to a greater volume than the headspace. It seems more likely that leakage would be due to increased pressure from expanding gas in the bottle, since gases expand a lot more than liquids when heated. So wine could leak out at a lower temperature than required for the liquid to expand to the point that it fills the headspace and beyond.
There are certainly approximations and assumptions in the calculation, but it’s probably not a bad estimate.
As far as your example, you measure the head-space. If it’s 3 ml, then you should compare the calculation with 753 and 750 to one with 751 and 748 (not 753 and 748). The initial volume doesn’t matter much as long as it’s roughly 750 ml.
When a wine bottle is heated, the head-space actually contracts unless the cork moves. It’s true that the expansion coefficient of the air is much larger than the wine, but liquids are much less compressible than gases. So, the wine “wins” and it expands almost as much as it would if the bottle were open. If the bottle is closed, it compresses the head space.
Alan, what I mean is that if you set two bottles next to each other, one took the journey you described, and one never left the cold room of a winery and there is no visible difference then you have no way to tell, short of opening the wine. My comment about wine that gets returned (with no outer signs of damage) is based on over 20 years in winery and retail. As someone else said you would be surprised the conditions some wine is subjected to.
In addition to the points Al made…I was assuming the bottles were upright (in a styro shipper). If wine went up the cork, I was assuming that the air in the head space would be pushed up the side of the cork before the wine does. Assuming all the air (or whatever gas is in the head space) all goes out the side of the cork is probably oversimplifying things…some air getting pushed up the cork and some being compressed is probably more realistic. I’d be surprised if wine would go up the side of the cork and the air wouldn’t (at least a good portion of it, with an upright bottle of course).
If the bottles are on their side or upside down (when it’s heated), then all of the head space air/gas gets compressed. Course, I didn’t account for the flare/widening of the bottle in the head space calculation I suggested…so that offsets these inaccuracies somewhat.
You have a point tho David…if the friction holding the cork in place is less than the ‘compressibility’ of the head space air then (when the bottle isn’t upright) the air probably would push the wine out. But, cork would get pushed out in this situation I believe…rather than the wine shooting up the side. Otherwise I’m sure Al is right that the wine wins and the air gets compressed.
But mostly I’m pleased/thrilled that I could make any sort of statement regarding physics that yielded a ‘not bad’ comment from Al!
