I’ll say this.
F U Thatcher, as you’re an ethicless scab who pisses on the producers whose wines you profiteer from. Sit in a room with any of them, aside from those you work with directly, and they would tell you just as much.
Just keep on doing what you do, look in the mirror each day, and tell yourself that you’re great.
It’s a free market, right?
Free to be a shameless schmuck as long as you make a buck.
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Boy did I miss something
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That felt very aggressive.
That was meant to be very aggressive.
His incessant sourcing for new release wines for producers he doesn’t represent is aggressive.
And the high five brofest praise he gets here needs an aggressive smackdown/call out.
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I’m not sure I find the need for insults, but I think profiteer perfectly describes Thatcher. I’ve said before, I believe that I and many other end consumers would be better off without those like him in the gray market cherry picker business.
ETA: BTW I’m still waiting on a case of '12 Salon that was supposed to arrive last year. I hear it’s still “on the water”.
Fair enough to say that my insults arent needed. I can hear that.
Thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
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you are the ultimate a**hole, Panzer
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An honor to have you dub me with such a superlative mantle, Susanne.
Thank you.
Brings to mind the appropriate adage
Opinions are like Aholes. Every one has one and thinks that theirs doesn’t stink.
Appropriate subtext here: Susanne dissed me publicly on Berserkers years ago, tried to order some wine from me recently, and I told her politely that i didnt want to sell her wine for disparaging me publicly. Her vengeance.
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The plot thickens.
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I guess I’m a little confused by this whole thing.
We are a wine business who sells wine for a living (obviously) yet we are being called profiteers?
You are saying we charge too much for the wine? But isn’t the issue that we charge less than you @Robert_Panzer ?
Sorry that we trying to bring wines to market that are incredibly hard to find and in volume where one can actually get them. Is it my problem that the “importer” doesn’t work hard or charges ridiculous margins?
It’s funny that it’s so problematic because we are far from the first to do this. Perhaps we just only focus on the wine that people want rather than some random Special Club champagne or new releases of some Super Tuscan at crazy low pricing.
To be perfectly clear - I am in this because I love wine. And if any producer is ever upset about the way that we source wine. I am always around for a conversation as that is far from the goal. You’d be surprised how little I care about money. I come from nothing and have grinded to get to where I am today. Trust me, you know nothing about me or my ethics. Unlike yourself - before I lash out, I prefer to actually know what I am talking about.
I do not create the ex-cellar pricing of wine. I do not create the allocation for importers. I do not send 20% of the producers production to importers they met 50 years ago and have kept it the same ever since who continue to sell the wine to the same shitty retailer in middle America, keep it for themselves or send it to auction…
The problem simply starts and ends with the way that producers sell wine. So - anyone that wonders - wow - this year, I bought 48 bottles of White Label Julian Haart from Thatcher’s Wine or I bought cases of Giesla 8 or how could I buy a mag of 16 La Tache for around 9k or someone bought 60 bottles of Cedric Bouchard…
We have a wildly successful import company and everyone here at WB are huge supporters of it - they get access to many producers that they are looking for and we provide them prices better then they could find probably anywhere else in the world. Additionally - the producers wines end up in the right places, the right restaurants and the (few) retailers who work hard and do a good job telling/sharing the story.
Any producer who is upset with me could happily call me - and I would love to sit down, talk to them and help them understand how I am able to gain access to the volume of wine we are able to gain access to. And I would be happy to help them solve the problem. Perhaps, along the journey - they might understand how wildly neurotic I am and how I spend 16 hours of a day working every single day to find producers, find wine and spend time sharing their story and apparently spending time to write unneeded messages to people like you who only see what they see and have no idea or have never talked to me about wine. Who knows, maybe those producers would want to join the Thatcher’s Import portfolio.
@Andrew_K - your wine has been in stock for months… it is on Weather Hold as it’s super hot in GA. As soon as weather breaks - we will reach out to get it sent to you! You can always view the status on the portal on the website!
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Im disappointed in your reasonable response. 1/5 stars for entertainment value.
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sorry Max!
I’m rather honored you took the time to personally look up my order history! Looking forward to cracking that bottle at a party some day!
My problem is I get allocated 1 or 2 or 3 bottles of some of the stuff you sell. I get presumably the same price you pay and then see it listed in case quantity at a 40% premium. You are just one, but there’s dozens more like you that snatch up the lion’s share of the allocated wines and leave the morsals for the rest of us pleebes. I’m glad business is booming for you, but I just want to drink the wine, not profit off of it.
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Let’s get reasonable, on a line by line basis of your post.
Googled dictionary definition of profiteer:
“To make or seek to make an excessive or unfair profit, especially illegally or in a black market.”
Not all people who sell wine for a living do it unethically via the black/gray market.
I didn’t say that you charge too much. My email offer prices are always better than yours (99% of the time, as far as I am aware), that wasn’t and isn’t my point.
Your comment that the “importer” (with quotes connoting a disrespect for their Domaine chosen role) doesn’t work hard seems misplaced to me, as the overwhelming majority of your gray sources, I speculate, are European importers/retailers who are flipping at slim enough margins to give you a carrot of profit to chase. I agree that sanctioned importers who charge ridiculous margins are worthy of reproach, and encourage/allow for much of gray market arbitrage that goes on.
I agree that you aren’t the first to do this, and you aren’t the first that i’ve reproached for unethical pissing on the will of the producers, the people who give their lives to their wine growing/making. Envoyer, Lopa, Premier cru, Somm Selections, Woodland Hills, all of 'em are playing the same game, and I have and will point the same criticism to all of them.
I believe that you love wine, and that you got into this because you love wine. Saying that it is up to the producer to reach out to you to reign in your behavior that you plain have to know isn’t what they want is sort of farcical to me. Like they don’t have enough to worry about in their lives. You have been called out and contacted by several producers that I know personally.
When you say how little you care about money, it brings a line from a William Burrough’s song he made with Bill Laswell, called “Advice for Young People.”
The quote that comes to mind:
“Beware of whores who say they don’t want money. The hell they don’t. What they mean is they want more money. Much more.”
I am happy to hear more about how and why you can justify what you do and how you view your own sense of ethics. PM your phone number and we can chat. I have to admit, my spidey sense tells me that it will be self justifying and cognitive dissonance (like a lot of your post), but I will put curiosity ahead of judgement.
Your next paragraph, I believe, is a jab at Martine’s Wines selling to Brown Derby in Missouri. Historical support is not one that I choose to disparage, nor what Brown Derby has done to bring fine wine to middle America going waaay back. The auction and keeping for oneself behavior is worthy of reproach, in my opinion.
The “problem simply starts and ends” is a black and white, unnuanced self justification that glosses over waay too much, specifically what producers, the people whose creation you profit from, want. To keep it simple and stupid in your analysis let’s you churn on without facing the shame you would most likely feel if those people were in the room with you seated across the table, calling you out.
You may be successful, but not everyone here at WB are huge supporters, nor fans. Here I am.
If you are willing to talk with producers about where and how you can gain access to their wines, I could come up with a solid list of people who would reach out to you, ask where you got their wine, and then no longer sell to those people. If you’re willing, again, PM me your number.
As to you doing a good job of telling their story, here’s just one element that I briefly saw in your description of la Rogerie that made me say blech: “Francois’ wife is Justine Boxler whose family runs Albert Boxler in Alsace.” Justine’s father runs Justin Boxler, not Albert Boxler. Her uncle runs Albert Boxler. I know this becase I imported the Justin Boxler wines roughly 15 years ago. Details matter, just as you aren’t your uncle’s son, and “selling” you as such would be a disrespect as far as my own compass goes.
So after all of that, does it seem that I am just lashing out without knowing what i’m talking about? Is it just unreflected misplaced internet sadism?
I don’t think so. And i’m happy to talk about it, and be accountable for myself if I misstep.
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I am from Canada but I am pretty sure that an uncle is in the “family”…
So - Justine’s family runs Albert Boxler seems to be perfectly correct. If it said Justines father runs Albert Boxler - that would be incorrect
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Not sure how a farsical post about no SF Kabinett got to this, but is the issue you allide to that Thatcher is buying wines grey market the allocations, of say, an importer in Denmark?
I met someone from Thatcher’s team not too long ago and he helped guide me through my first purchases with them and gave me advice on what wines to get (I’m trying my best to learn more about Burgundy). Got the reminder I needed to buy more!
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This is factually correct, but selectively chosen framing to keep it on the prestige end of things, and not actually acknowledging her own parents winery.
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I imagine the purchases of importers wherever, whatever, whenever.
Anything goes.
I didn’t at all intend to identify your post in particular Kris, just clicked “reply” to try to continue the conversation.
I’m not terribly proficient in the fineries of the WB framework, still have no idea how to add photos etc…
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No worries. As a distributor I used to have to shut down avenues to gray market in US for wines like Leroy, Rayas, Perrot Minot, and others with Martines, and multiple wines with Kobrand from Jadot to Sette Ponti by tracking down the importer selling them to keep their allocation in Europe.