Solid experience that has depth and isn’t too thin, with a reasonable budget. That’s not Burgundy then.
Sounds like you need to drink Oregon PN.
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Certainty not exhaustive, but off the top of my head: Lafon, Leflaive, Lamy, Dujac, Cathiard, Rousseau, Grivot, L’Arlot, Thibault Liger-Belair, Hudelot-Noellat, Mugneret-Gibourg.
Also making good wines but I wouldn’t consider “favorite” category: Trapet, Berthaut-Gerbet, Sauzet, Moreau, JM Pillot, Paul Pillot, Sylvie Esmonin, Bachelet, Barthod, Lignier.
Sometimes there’s a conspiracy of silence over bottles that consistently fail to perform, such as the oxidative 2010 La Tache and the completely unexpressive Rousseau Chambertin 99. People generally have too much invested to admit it but even at the top level Burgundy is something of a crapshoot. That used very much to be part of the pleasure but at today’s prices it’s just boring. The most magical bottles can quite often be the least anticipated ones.
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They can be sensational and often are not, but that applies to practically everything in Burgundy. I would say that the irregularity has lessened with age.
I’m interested to read about DRC in 1993, the wines I remember were all so closed that they tasted like ink but that was a long time ago. Those who have had the chance to follow them tell me nothing has changed so I’m pleased by your experience.
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I think most here would say that 2016 GCs are not really in an ideal spot either.
There is a lot of enjoyment to be had early on and later, but for my experience this seems to be a bad age to drink GC. A lot of village 2015s I’ve had recently were great and a decent percentage seemed to be shut down pretty good.
I was fortunate to get my feet wet with solid producers and entry level wines — think mostly under $60 — that are pretty damn good. Will they ever thrill like a GC from a great producer ( that is showing great in the day you have it)? Nope.
But I could have two cases of them and feel fine if a few didn’t make my taint tingle
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I don’t think the 2010 La Tache is unique in that regard, it’s not uncommon for DRC this century. Still a very good wine.
I also don’t think red Burgundy is nearly the crapshoot it used to be - the average winemaking is better and the results more consistent. I think the crapshoot experience had more to do just how mediocre so much of the wines were in the 80s and 90s (a lot of what I’d call survivor bias!).
Most Burgundy that’s made in a somewhat natural style isn’t designed to be aged. The Dominique Laurent situation is somewhat interesting because it was, in some ways, the opposite - he was using “200% oak” and “magic barrels” with the intention of making great wine once the oak was properly absorbed. Unclear how “sexy” they were young - grand cru red Burgundy isn’t really designed to be drunk like that, even from producers using very pretty oak like Mugneret-Gibourg (whose wines I love, to be clear).
I have one of Laurent’s newer wines on tap - he now has Domaine holdings, so I’m curious how they are now. His cooperage skills are still very esteemed by some very respected producers for whom he sources barrels.
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Is your last sentence not a slight contradiction of your first?I don’t think they have any business showing oxidised characteristics. I’m not at all a regular consumer of these wines but I do get the occasional chance thanks to the generosity of friends. Some of them are absolutely wonderful but quite a lot of them are not, and at the moment my inclination is to suggest that they be drunk on the younger side.
Agreed-nor should it be at the price, and it still is to quite an extent.
They generally tasted overwhelmingly of new oak, which I suspect was partially a reduction effect.
I am surprised and pleased that many of the absurdly oaky wines quite a few producers made in this era have turned out beautifully after a quarter of a century.
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Idk, maybe there’s a lot of bottle variation; I’ve had the 10 LT 3-4 times in the last couple years, mostly with people on this forum and it’s been superb each time. Perhaps @Andrew_K or @Alex_Valdes can comment on this.
I would say my experience is that Burgundies from top producers have performed well at least 80-90% of the time. Certainly there’s some duds, but I wouldn’t say it’s a minefield.
By oxidative what I really mean is that it drinks older than it should, but it’s still a good wine. I expect as it ages further (it is, by grand cru burgundy standards, a young wine), this will become more pronounced and a bigger problem. For drinking today, it’s a very good wine though. Which is not always the case at DRC, a Domaine that makes far more variable wine than people like to acknowledge.
Price to me is a second order issue - I’m starting with the question of whether the wines are consistent. Whether they’re worth the price is the next point.
I think that’s partially the question of the tolerance for quesitonable oak. To me, many of these producers have not fared well - the late 90s/early 2000s renditions of Cathiard, Lignier* (the wines made by Romain), Arnoux, Laurent, etc continue to taste of unintegrated oak to me on the palate and I don’t think that will change. One of the effects of Parker on Burgundy. I also appreciate that for people who like oak spice this isn’t an issue - a stylistic point.
*I love the wines made by Hubert and Laurent fwiw - one of my first great Burgundies was an 87 Lignier.
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I certainly cede to your greater experience, I’ve had it once and it was poor, at first assumed to be because of uncertain provenance but it seems that many people have reported similar experiences even with directly ex-Domaine bottles.
I think 80% is a generous but fair estimate nowadays, but when it comes to older bottles, and I don’t mean that old, it is overoptimistic. It is difficult to assess some of these wines objectively and I’m not sure it is even always desirable, it’s nice to be persuaded by an aura of magic sometimes.
It’s wines from a bit earlier that I’m thinking of. I agree about most producers you mention with the partial exception of Laurent. The Arnoux wines remain astonishingly unpleasant to my taste, quite unlike their current manifestation.
They do change, quite often, even when it has seemed entirely out of the question.
Also, the assumption that GCs are going to be better wines than 1ers and villages has quite often been a vain one, most particularly in 1999.
I’ve had probably more '10 LT than any other vintage, starting around 2014 and lately as well. It’s been superb every single time I’ve had it. One of my favorite recent vintages in fact.
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So far this year I’ve had only a handful of bottles that have r been superb, and I’ve probably had 200+ different high end burgs. Even the bottles that weren’t the very best were interesting, like the 2002 Anne Gros Richebourg I opened with @Nick_Christie. I opened a 2012 liger Belair which I felt wasn’t great although others liked it. Other than that, almost everything I’ve had has been outstanding, and I tend to be pretty critical of wines I open.
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In that case it has done its job, more than which no one could ask!
The 96 CDLR they were pouring at paulee in LA was pretty good, did you try that one? I am not sure if that vintage was made by Romain or Hubert. I did open a 2000 MSD 1er VV this year with @Nick_Christie and @Mike_Grammer which was really good. I didn’t note any obtrusive oak at all but perhaps you’re more sensitive to it.
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Subpar RICHEBOURG? What domaine are we talking about???
I remember a couple of months ago that @Keith_Levenberg mentioned that 2010s red Burgs he had were maturing faster than he expected. They were still good wines, but perhaps not the longest agers (and I apologize in advance Keith if I misinterpreted what you posted).
It sounds like you feel that is definitely true with 2010 DRC La Tache – are you finding that with 2010s in general or is it just the La Tache?
I ask because I have some 2010s – most recent one I had was 2010 Gouges Pruliers (and a corked 2010 Gouges Vaucrains, ugh) that seemed like it could use a couple more years (though it was still pretty for my palate). But, that may be just a Gouges thing.
I drink a lot of Lignier’s wines and the note is very consistent. The 1996 Lignier at Paulee wasn’t a very good wine, but it’s a tough vintage.
There’s a longer discussion that can be had about DRC generally, and I know others have also said that there are concerns about premature aging on 10s. I haven’t experienced it with Mugnier, Fourrier, Gibourg (which has actually been somewhat tight, surprisingly), Drouhin, Rousseau or others and some others, but I know it’s been a concern.
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