For top Burgundy GC vineyards (I.e. Echezeaux, Bonnes-Mares, etc.), given the quality of the fruit is so high and the vineyards are so small, are there really any “bad” bottles or “bad” producers putting out bottles from these area (particularly in good years, for example the two mentioned above in 2015 or 2016). It seems like the ownership is sufficiently small and concentrated that all the bottles coming out of these vineyards should be relatively high quality. Of course some will be better than others, but they will all be high quality and age worthy. Has that been your experience? Or are there certain producers to avoid, despite have access to the best fruit?
Price would seem to indicate the market thinks basically all bottles from the vineyard represent great wine/winemaking, but I was curious if this holds true for those who have a lot of experience in the world of red Burgundy.
Actually it is the other way around. In Burgundy it is Producer, Producer, Producer over vineyard. There are many producers with access to Grand Cru fruit who make over priced mediocre wines. Also there are talented producers whose Premier Cru wine are easily superior to the Grand Cru wine from the lesser producers.
Also I would never include Echezeaux in a list of Top GC vineyards.
I have heard producer over vineyard. But I suppose I was wondering if you hone in enough (perhaps Grands Echezeaux over Echezeaux as a better example), would you get a quality product no matter what?
No. The higher you go, the more important producer is because the more money you are going to pay. There’s some subpar Richebourg and RSV and Musigny out there charging way too much no doubt.
And you can buy $120 GC wine all day long and it’s barely better than high end village lieu dit.
Producer is king over vineyard in Burgundy especially.
In my long experience, a top grand cru is rarely “bad”, but they very often can be not that great- meaning they are drinkable and tasty plus even show their terroir, but nowhere near what they could be- and certainly very bad values for the price you are paying.
Producer does matter quite a bit. Rouget, Roumier, Claude Dugat and Sauzet are four examples of producers whose entry level Bourgognes are often more inspiring and interesting that poorly made grand crus- and at a tenth the price. There is a reason the best Bourgognes are some of the hardest Burgundies to find in the marketplace.
You also have the fact that when production is very small, or relatively small anyway, even a minor issue in a given vintage can mess things up badly since a producer does not have the luxury of culling a significant portion of the production. 1987 DRC La Tache is a key example- if only because it is such a rare outlier for what is usually one of the most reliably great wines in any vintage. The wine was going out of balance 25 years ago at a point when the Richebourg and RSV were in their prime and is surely in a very bad place now. Roumier Musigny is another one- a glorious wine, but the 1991 was rather out of sorts at age 28 (and 1991 was an excellent year for the Bonnes-Mares and Chambolle AC) and the 2002 may never fully overcome the unintended error with the oak treatment. The 2002 issue is well known because it was reported by the critics in their barrel and pre-release tastings, but the 1991 took a long time to evolve into where it ended up, and unless you talk to someone who has tried one of the 450ish bottles made, you are unlikely to know to be wary when it comes up at auction. And to be fair, the wine may have sorted itself out by now. Burgundies are very unpredictable compared to other wines for a variety of reasons and the quantities are so scarce at the top level very few people have the luxury of trying a given vintage many times over a long period. These wines can have very awkward and even scary phases only to come out great later- 1993 DRC being a prime example. I remember the Richebourg being angular and oaky at release- but it came out beautifully in time. And there were later points where La Tache and even RC were getting mixed reviews, but those times passed eventually.
In the past, the usual issue was sloppy/uncaring practices in the vineyard and cellar on the part of winemakers who knew they could remain lazy and still get a certain price for their wines because of the vineyard.
The bigger worry today- iMHO- is twofold.
First, you have a number of producers that have somehow become collectible superstars and are achieving prices that just make no sense unless you are a billionaire with zero price sensitivity. You will often get at least a nice wine, but $500 for a “nice” Bourgogne when you could have had Rouget or Dugat at $60 is a pretty bad experience in my view.
You also have to watch out for trendy winemakers who are trying new things and making very sexy wines that may not age all that well. Good intentions for the most part- but still bad outcomes. Dominique Laurent was a prime example. In the mid to late 1990s they were one of the first examples of a burgundy Domaine (well a negociant technically) that came out of nowhere into instant fame. The wines were delicious and crafted with serious and good intent- but have not aged well IMHO. They are not bad in old age, but not as good as they could be.
Throw into the mix that the grand crus sometimes get different treatment in the winery, which may do the wine no favors. Give me a fresh, transparent, honest village wine over a GC with tons of lipstick any day.
Tom, thanks a lot for this response. This is exactly what I was wondering. While I’m definitely not going to be in that $400+ per bottle range, there are the larger negociants (Latour, Jadot, etc.) putting out GC bottles that do seem to get solid ratings on CellarTracker. But based on the conversations on this site, you wouldn’t think those bottles would be worth a damn.
I asked in part because I stumbled across an opportunity to buy a few last bottles of Henri de Villamont’s top 2016 wine around $190, their 2016 Grands Echezeaux (and I decided to pull the trigger to see how this evolved over time). My understanding is that 2016 was a tough year in the Cote de Nuit weather-wise, but that the fruit that survived was fantastic, and resulted in generally amazing bottles, albeit extremely small quantities. I’ve had some positive experiences with Villamont’s 2017 1er Cru bottles (in particular Les Suchots), and it appears they are putting out solid bottles based on CellarTracker, but I know they get a mix of positive and downright shit reviews on WineBeserker. And while I understand Villamont is no DRC or Meo-Camuzet in terms of winemaking, buying those bottles allows me to try Grands Echezeaux fruit at a fraction of the cost.
So I guess the follow up question is, is it worth buying these negociant bottles from the GC vineyards? Whether that’s Jadot, Latour, Villamont, etc.
One thing has been consistent over the 40+ years I have been purchasing Burgundy. Buying vineyard over producer is a horrible idea. Same thing in German wines and wines in numerous other regions. I remember a friend saying to me multiple years ago that he could not see paying a bit extra buying a Wehlener Sonnenuhr from JJ Prum rather than from a lesser producer, because they were both WS. Boy was he wrong.
Others have covered the quality differences, so I won’t go there. Even among producers of comparable quality, whatever that means, the wines are going to be quite different. The wines from one producer may have different alcohol levels from the wines of another producer - whether because of farming practices, harvest dates, use of native yeasts vs. commercial yeasts, etc. One may use 100% new oak and push extraction levels, another may use more traditional winemaking methods. You may like one wine better, I may like another wine better.
And, then there are excellent producers like Mongeard-Mugneret that traditionally have made wines from Grand Echezeaux and Echezeaux that have been very tannic and harsher when young, but blossom into excellent wines over time. Is that what you are looking for - if not (or even if so), how are you going to figure out what style of wine you are buying just buying from vineyard?
I must admit I firmly believe that the OP won’t listen to any of us and just will buy the cheapest Grand Crus he can find. I expect a thread in a few weeks from the OP declaring Burgundy to be a minefield because chose the easy way out and bought vineyard over producer.
Howard, I plan to take the advice to heart, but will likely do a combination. I’m not planning on spending $700 on famous producers bottling GC vineyards anytime soon, so I’ll likely take at shot the lesser producers for those. But I agree that my favorite bottles thus far have been smaller producers villages lieu dit bottles and 1er crus. So I’m going to put more energy into targeting the less expensive bottles of the best producers, based on the feedback in this thread. Thanks for the input. Stay tuned for my thread on Burgundy being a minefield ;).
You don’t have to spend $700 on a grand cru bottle of wine to get a good Grand Cru. You need to find a good retailer who can lead you to excellent producers like Rossignol-Trapet where the wines are a good bit cheaper than that.
One thing I’ll add to further the understanding of producer over vineyard is the incredible variation of farming practices within a single vineyard. Some of the larger vineyards in Burgundy (Clos Vougeot, Echezeaux) show this pretty well. A producer might have just a single row or two, with a dozen different producers scattered throughout. And all the rows and vines do not look the same, even with casual perusal. Different pruning, different undergrowth, different shapes to leaves and bunches. William Kelley has documented this kind of thing frequently, look for him on Instagram. Different farming practices lead to different wines, not to mention all the differences in handling/treatment once the grapes leave the vineyard.
So now we get to the true point of the thread! To find evidence to support that you made a good purchase.
You’ll have to try one and see whether it’s worth it for you. I haven’t had Villamont, but personally these types of “deals” have led to disappointment for me as I have found very little excitement in the wines. You can probably tell it’s good juice, but typically lacks weight and density and definitely doesn’t have the spark that lingers in your memory.
Then the next day you may drink a $90 1er Cru from a better producer and you ask yourself why you paid more than double for a lesser wine just because it says GE on the label.
Or you might hit it out of the park and find that you absolutely love the winemaker style. Either way you’ll learn something!
That’s a good point, it does seem like you can find GC bottles from Rossignol-Trapet in the $250-300 range for recent releases, less for older releases. Any other producers in this same price range that you like a lot?
Less about validating and more to know whether there are better options out there that I should be focused on. I’m going to pop a bottle of the Villamont shortly to see how it is. I’m hoping for a solid experience that has depth and isn’t too thin, but only tasting will tell.
