Clos du Marquis and Les Griffons de Pichon Baron 2016

WINE TALK
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I was curious to try these together - I wasn’t very familiar with the Griffons and wanted to see how it would compare with a CDM.

Les Griffons de Pichon Baron - Pauillac 2016

Classic Pauillac aromas of pencil shavings and cassis, plus a little black pepper and blackberry, then a very silky mouthful of blackcurrant and blackberry, typically Pichon Baron in the way it’s composed, a little oak but fairly unobtrusive, plus some rounded but lingering tannins on the finish. Approachable now with a long decant but promising much more in the future. Plenty of core energy to the fruit but well-balanced and not remotely overdone. Still a work in progress but great potential. Very impressive.

Clos du Marquis - St.Julien 2016

Notes of strawberry and coffee amidst the blackcurrant aromas, with hints of spices and forest fruits. The attack is smooth, effortlessly charming, with pure blackcurrant fruit and waves of strawberry and plum, then already a middle section featuring dark cherry and vanilla, before a long, rising finish dominated by juicy blackberry, with silky tannins keeping it all in check.

The Griffons is a comparatively new wine from Pichon, a second second wine, if that makes sense, but much closer in style to PB itself than the Tourelles one. I had tried a Griffons 2017 when I visited Pichon Baron last summer, but the 2016 is on another level. It’s not as good as PB, obviously, but it’s much better than I thought it would be. I can think of several older vintages of Pichon that are less impressive (eg 2006). I got some at auction for a mere 31€, which represents excellent value, but even at the normal price, closer to 50€, I would go back for more. It is simply better than many Pauillac CCs for around the same price.

I get what they are doing here - if Les Tourelles really tastes like a second wine, Les Griffons is somewhere between the top wine and Les Tourelles. I imagine they are targeting the same market as Les Forts de Latour and Les Carruades - or Clos du Marquis.

Trying them together, the Clos du Marquis was more impressive - it had better complexity, a more appealing blend of fruit, and a little more silkiness than the Griffons. It is more expensive at around 60€, but worth paying the difference for. Again, this definitely no longer tastes like the second wine it once was. I wonder whether they shouldn’t have actually created a new brand rather than use this one. Like the Griffons, there are several St.Julien CCs not at this level, and several older vintages of LLC that are less good.

I used to be ambivalent, to say the least, about these types of wine, but I have to admit that they do actually warrant their prices. There is something annoying about massive CCs creating new brands that are “second-rate” versions of the big guns, but when the quality is at this level, why not? The only remaining question is whether or not the big guns are worth the considerable price difference - each to their own on that one, but I’ll happily buy CDM instead of LLC.

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Julian,
These two wines are not cheap, particularly the Clos de Marquis. If you were comparing to them to similarly priced first wines such as Branaire, Meyney, Cantermerle etc, would you consider them comparable?

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Yes! It wasn’t a total surprise since I had already discovered to my amazement that CDM 06 was better than Branaire 06. It would be a good idea to compare them in 2016, but in the meantime I went back for more CDM 16 yesterday.

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I have loved the les griffons 16. Such a great wine.

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Great notes and observations.

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I haven’t had any recent Clos du Marquis, but I had the 2000 last year and my first thought was how similar it was to Branaire, but with a bit more depth. Terrific St Julien, very old school with teeth coating tannins. It’s not actually a second wine of LLC since it comes from its own plot and vines.

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Yes, it’s all very confusing. CDM used to be the second wine, and I’m not entirely sure when this really changed. My guess would be starting with the 03 or 04 vintage, but it would be interesting to know precisely.

I used to buy CDM every year, starting with the 82 vintage, as it was good value, if not top quality. There was absolutely no misunderstanding about the fact that it was the second wine. However, the price rose considerably over the years, and I jacked it in after the 99 vintage, when I had compared it to Moulin Riche (at the time, Poyferré’s second wine), and found the latter a lot better for a lot less.

I rediscovered CDM with the 2006 vintage, which I posted about last year - it was simply the best CDM I had ever had at the time, a total revelation compared to earlier vintages. The 2016 is certainly better than the 06 but not by that much.

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Wow. I have not had a CDM in decades, kind of drifted away from it, and then the price seemed to get out of whack. Another try may now be in order, thanks for the input.

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Julian this wine is flat out gorgeous. I have a handful in the fridge at the house, but had not tried one, so I was definitely prompted by your note. I am absolutely floored by this wine. I am absolutely ordering more. It’s got the power, the dark cassis and the pencil shavings of a Pauillac, with the florality of a St Julien. A sublime nose. And the palate is equally up to the task. Runs the full color spectrum of fruits, love the plummy purples, the dark cassis, and even the red citrus notes. The purity on this fruit is sensational. Love the tangy sweet tannic finish. This wine will age effortlessly but damn is it so freaking good right now. (94 pts.)

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Ugh sounds like Internet wines is back in my life :slight_smile: nice note!

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Haha, I checked as well. Order coming…

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As The Hives would say - “Hate to say I told you so”! Glad you liked it!

I’ve been enjoying a 2000 for the last two evenings - quite the little surprise:

Like the 2016, it has strawberry notes poking through the blackcurrant aromas, with some old rose in the background, then a really fresh but creamy mouthful of plum, cassis and violet, very pure, very smooth, like liquid velvet. It succeeds in being both full-bodied and elegant, with fruit which is ripe but measured, gliding seamlessly through the gears from start to finish. Although delicious, this is still very young and primary, with a long future ahead. 94 pts, maybe 95 pts in the future.

I was gobsmacked by this. I’d only tasted the 2000 once, in 2016, and wasn’t impressed. I was confidently expecting to pooh-pooh it as a typical CDM from when it really was a mere second wine. Well, instead of that I discovered a St.Julien 2000 that is, for me, better than Branaire and Talbot in this vintage, probably better than Lagrange and Beychevelle, and I’d be curious to see how it fares with Gruaud or Léoville-B.

At release, this cost me 28 euros, about the same as Lagrange, which is why I only bought two. Today, it’s worth around 60 euros, so practically the same as the 2016. For a 2000, bearing in mind the prices that the St.Julien competition are selling for, that’s really good value.

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Les Tourelles de Longueville is the second wine of Pichon Baron. The fruit comes from a selection,of parcels. Les Griffons de Pichon Baron is a vat selection made before bottling. Les Griffons de Pichon Baron has older vines than Les Tourelles and is a bigger, more complex wine.

Clos du Marquis is not a second wine. It is more of a distinct, unique wine from the property as it comes from the same parcels every vintage, and those parcels are not used for LLC. Le Petit Lion du Marquis de Las Cases is the second wine of LLC.

There was a second wine of Clos du Marquis for a few years, but that was discontinued.

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As a footnote, we celebrated my birthday on Wednesday with a bottle of LLC 2001 - very nice wine, gentle and restrained, great elegance, but without the power I expected and I have to say I preferred the CDM 00 tasted a few days earlier.

Thanks Jeff, that confirms what I knew, but do you know when CDM stopped being the second wine? It still was when we visited LLC in 2001, and the cellarmaster at the time,

Bruno Rolland (NB no relation to the other one!!) didn’t say anything about a change. What he did reveal, however, was that there was an unofficial third wine called Terre du Lion. He wouldn’t have said anything if I hadn’t spotted some bottles lurking in a corner of the tasting room. He said that Terre du Lion was in fact produced by a négociant with fruit from LLC’s young wines, with nothing on the label to show that there was any connection to LLC (apart from the rather obvious name).

What is odd is that the wine is still produced today, in spite of the newer second wine, by the same négociant as before, Borderac Crus et Vins. I’m guessing that today Terre du Lion is just a brand which includes other fruit from young wines from other chateaux. Any idea?!

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CDM has never been a second wine according to the owners, as it’s sourced from different parcels than LLC. It’s anwats been considered a unique wine, and not a true second wine.

FWIW, I knew, and used to taste with Bruno back in the day.