Exactly!
Weâre seeing a lot of Loire CFs that show none these days, as well from other cool climates sites. Still in the moderate ripeness zone.
I guarantee with your Fruili case, the vineyards are not uniform, and which variety was planted at which sites was not haphazard. In other words, slopes with less sun and so forth were deemed acceptable to plant CF, but not CS.
A favorite CS vineyard of mine is, according to some claims, the coldest CS site in CA. The original winemaker made wines that had a huge amount of pyrazine, but showed green peppercorn, with wonderful aromatics and interplay with the fruit. Definitely not what Iâd call bell pepper. My friends took over the vineyard and started picking 6 weeks later, a week or so into November, and there was still notable pyrazine, though a fraction of before. Darker, fuller fruit, ABV about a half percent higher, pH maybe as much as .1 higher. I found some new accounts for the current release they were trying to clear out when my friends took over, but where I hoped would be the biggest buyer passed. The CA buyer said he wouldnât be able to sell it, but he said he thought their Bdx would absolutely love it. Iâm sure if it had CF on the label heâd have bought it.
I have countless blind tasting experiences where people ignore the obvious CS fruit, and often proclaim âdefinitely not CSâ because of some pyrazine. I know Napa CS producers whoâve told me they ripen the crap out of their Cab Sauvs precisely to eliminate any trace of pyrazine (which sounds to me like they hate the varietal character of the grape and are only making those wines because theyâre cash cows). All about the pursuit of wine ratings (with Laube being a key concern) and market expectations.
So, many many factors, including differing ripening curves. Pyrazine is not a varietal character of one and not the other. There are great counter examples of both, and should be more (as in incidentally, in pursuit of making the best wines from given sites, rather than compromising potential due to some arbitrary BS.)
Although all grape varieties tend to show pyrazines if picked underripe, Iâd still argue it can be a varietal characteristic in grape varieties that retain pyrazines when a grape is fully ripe by all other accounts and disappear only if left to become overripe.
And? Are you straying into the hypothetical? Are you saying a moderately ripe CF that probably everyone on this board would call blind as a CF, even though it shows no pyrazine, lacks varietal character? As someone with hands-on experience with both grapes, from many vineyards and with several wineries, Iâm saying it is as much a varietal character of both. Iâm saying destroying a wineâs potential to get rid of it is bad, and that compromising a wineâs potential to keep it is bad.
It always seems to me that the terroiristes are always asking the skeptics to disprove what they believe, as though believers in UFOs asked non believers to disprove that little Martians actually live on Area 51. David Darlington wrote a book on Area 51 and two books on wineâŚCan anyone disprove the well-known fact he is from another planet and actually does his reportage from a UFO??
Itâs not so long ago that people really believed that decomposed oyster shells etc gave Chablis its flavor. When I first got into the wine trade, I went to a party where Jacques Seysses told us that you needed limestone soil to make decent pinot noir and thatâs why Josh Jensen would strike it richâŚHmm, Josh did strike it rich now that I think of it. OK, I meant Burgundian Pinot. Yet we see lots of folks making decent Pinot and sometimes really great stuff w/o limestone soilâŚThis reminds me of a book I read on Champagne, where it was said that in springtime they would open the doors of the winery and the spirits in the trees would communicate with the spirits in the wine and a second fermentation would begin.
I m not sure how to say this but lots of beliefs about wine we had forty years ago have been discredited. But aspects of these beliefs still color our thinking. Is a strong belief in terroir a kind of ersatz animism??
Of course, this stuff is great if you are selling wine. Spirit in the tree meets the spirit in the skyâŚweâre talking big sales.
If having Aubert de V as an advisor were the most crucial aspect of winemaking then Larry Hyde and his family would be really really rich instead of just a lot of funâŚTry as he may Aubert cannot bring the magic of Vosne Romanee to Carneros. He can bring technical suggestions.There is something magic about the right mixture of soil,climate and winemakingâŚeven if it can be explained rationally.
This reminds me of a book I read on Champagne, where it was said that in springtime they would open the doors of the winery and the spirits in the trees would communicate with the spirits in the wine and a second fermentation would begin.
Damn Mel - I could have selected any one of your sentences as quote-worthy. But thatâs it exactly. And the default is always âthereâs a lot that we donât knowâ.
But thereâs a lot that we do know if we pay attention. To the point Wes was making, I had that conversation with someone tonight. He was trying to guess a wine blind and I told him that if he had those pyrazine notes, he might start considering grapes from the whole CF family. But lacking those notes didnât eliminate the possibility of those grapes.
In the early 70s and before, people really believed taste came from the soil and thus talked about âgout de terroirâ as not only a summation of everything around the vineyardâsoil, climate, human interventionâbut as a real taste of the soil.
We still talk about terroir but not the way we did back then. Maybe we need a new word or a new framework for looking at this.
I think what is important is that the soil and climate match. Normally in Bordeaux drainage is important and in a normal vintage those sites do the best.But in a drought year the vineyards with lots of water retentive clay do very well. Here, drainage might be important in a year like 1972 or 1989 but usually itâs the clay soils that do the best. We used to get chardonnay grapes from two vineyards in the Anderson Valley. During dry vintages the one on clay soil did the best as it held water and slowed ripening. The one on gravel had trouble and the grapes would âshrinkleâ in warm vintages.
After that matching the winemaking technique to the vineyard is crucial.
I was reading a couple of fascinating articles the other day about grapevine root systems. In the back of my mind, the spectre of âterroirâ began to rear its ugly head.
I try not to over-think the influence that vineyard soils plays in tasting notes.**
The World of Fine Wine
âBetween a Rock and a Hard Place: Vineyard Soilsâ
July 16, 2015
ââŚI love the idea of old vines, with their gnarly appearance and rich heritage. I can easily imagine that wines from them taste superior. And perhaps they do, bearing in mind the proven pedigree and naturally restricted vigor of old vines. The notion, however, that their deep roots are bringing extra minerals to the vines and, hence, extra nuances to the wine has no basis, in view of the explanations above. The bulk of a vineâs nutrition comes from the mix of humus and weathered geological minerals in the upper parts of the vineyard ground. Deep roots may be impressive, but they will have grown very largely in response to the need to tap into any supplementary water available deep downâŚâ.
I happen to enjoy many wines that are made from own-rooted, old vine plantings grown in interesting locations. It could be that such sites are more frequently worked by mindful producers whose farming and winemaking protocols result in higher quality wines.
What I would say as well! When you read through it, it is mostly a series of anecdotes and generalizations, no real data.
Everybody accepts the role of drainage, that is a first order effect for sure. The geochemical angle is more complicated. Anybody with training in soil chemistry or geochemistry knows that minerals are not taken up directly by the plant, since the elemental requirements are regulated by the plant. Here the soil microbiome can come into play to the extent that it regulates the availability of mineral-derived nutrients (the so-called âgeogenicâ elements) along with the soil carbon. If it was all soil carbon, then one could produce a great wine where ever the right carbon is added. We certainly know this is not the case.
I also do not agree that the reactions are too slow. Particularly with the mediation of the soil microbiome, it is easy to show that there is measurable geogenic nutrients (Ca, K, Na, etc) in the soil, so these are replenished by the combination of the local microbe-mediated reactions and transport from further afield (10 cm length scale).
Anyway, from what this guy says, one would conclude that one could produce great wine anywhere the right temperature and drainage are present. Is this because, like the UC Davis guys, they have never had an aged wine? Drinking too much 2 year old California Cabernet most likely.
One element more recently studied is the grape skin biome. That has an impact on compounds produced within the grapes. Many factors effect the makeup of this biome and how healthy it is. But, since it impacts flavors and aromas of the resultant wine, itâs definitely part of terroir.
The soil biome doesnât only regulate the macronutrients. People often overlook micronutrients, because they havenât been studied near as long and are harder to understand, but they can also be crucial. Nutrients play a big role in fermentation dynamics, which have a huge impact on the wine.
Both of these ecosystems can greatly hindered by toxins and other poor choices.
Well put.
One element more recently studied is the grape skin biome.
And in these days of COVID especially, also the human skin biome. Which also affects your sourdough bread!
Thatâs all pretty interesting stuff actually - whatâs on the grapes as opposed to what is in the grapes.
Itâs whatâs on the grapes interacting with the grapes and directing aspects of their development. Itâs interesting all these functions we assumed were part of our own biology, for example, are actually performed by microbes that have existed for a billion years. Advanced life evolved interacting with these things. So, you have non-human cells in your bloodstream assisting your immune system. All these yeast and bacteria that make wine, beer, kraut, cheese, etc. are living on our skin and/or in our gut. I suspect the occasional armpit BO I get in a wine is from the same bacteria via the French winemaker. I know certain familiar aromas on cheeses are from the same fungi or bacteria that brings them to mind. ![[wow.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/7/7d450e9830889c8943b674446a21b7254cad657e.gif "wow"){kind=small}
Nothing new here in (1). Maybe we should give this guy the Goldschmidt Award for GeochemistryâŚ
Growing vegetables this summer in a raised bed and pots, Iâm scratching my head trying to understand why we care so much about soil, when the potting mix/soil is essentially all organic, with literally no actual âsoilâ. It has always been a question in my mind why no one talks about terroir for growing fruits and vegetables other than wine grapes.
The french absolutely do!!! The source of vegetables is almost always stated in out local greengrocer.
Oh sure, we have plenty of artisan producers here as well, and lots of restaurant menus will call out their sources. But those are the names of producers, not a plot of land. Itâs the producers that have reputations, not the land itself, at least around here. Of course, certain regions are noted for what they grow, but I perceive that more for climate than soil. And vegetables are almost always grown in richer valley soils.
Letâs not forget Vidalia onions, which have their own legally protected appellation!
How do think the producer acheived their reputation? Because they grow amazing vegetables in pots?
Producer matters. So does the land, the climate, and the farming culture. A great grower can grow produce in many, many places but a big part of their success is going to from being able to read their land and play to strengths and minimize the weaknesses.
You live in one of the greatest growing areas in the worldâŚand if most of your local producers were moved to Nevada, they couldnât match the same quality that they grow now to save their lives.
Itâs funny that in another thread you quote someone saying the entire wine industry is full of people who are full of shit, regardles of their work or dedication. That states that their success is obviously due to something other than themselves as producers. But now you christen produce growers as the sole reason their product is good? That just makes no sense.
Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isnât invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?
The tomatoes i get from my raised bed, grown in âsoilâ made from purely organic material, will be close to as good as any you could buy from the best sources. Iâm merely trying to understand how thatâs possible, in light of what we think of as terroir.