Busting terroir myths: The science of soil and wine taste

[John_Morris]

Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isn’t invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?
…

A counterexample: olives. Of course, there are different species, but sophisticated producers pay a lot of attention to where the oil comes from. And, mostly, they grow in infertile soils where nothing else but great wine grapes can thrive.

One other counterexample: From my years in the Bay Area, I thought Webb Ranch tomatoes were special.

There are lots of places in Europe where fruit and vegetables from specific areas are particularly prized. Piedmont is renowned for its hazelnuts, for instance. (Not to mention white truffles.) Malatya in Turkey is famous for its apricots.

I’m sure the fact that we don’t pay attention to fruit and vegetable sources in the US is due to lack of long traditions and industrial-scale agriculture. Our production system is designed to deliver Imperial Valley or Mexican lettuce when it’s out of season in the Salinas Valley, and Chilean or Peruvian blueberries and asparagus when they’re not in season in North America. (The so-so blueberries I bought last week were grown in Florida – midway, I guess.) On the East Coast, we get bell peppers grown hydroponically in hothouses in Quebec or Ontario (cheap year-round electric power for UV lights!) or the Netherlands (!).

If we pay no attention to the geographic source, it’s probably because in most of the country, outside farmers markets, American produce is really mediocre.

[Alan_Rath]

John, olives and tree grown fruits are an interesting example. Maybe because they grow on trees that can get old, a la vines? And that means those that don’t show great quality won’t continue to be farmed? I absolutely agree that much american produce is mediocre. I almost never get tomatoes here that rival those I remember from the south of France. And the best nectarine of my life remains one I bought at the Versailles farmers market, and ate on the banks of the canal in view of the palace

Still I think a focus on terroir is far less for any product other than grapes. But really my point in this tangent was that we can grow high quality produce without any actual soil at all, and what does that tell us about terroir, and what the function of soil really is?

Before someone accuses me of not believing in terroir, that’s absolutely not the case. But I grow less certain every day that the reasons are anything like what we are often told they are.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isn’t invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?

The tomatoes i get from my raised bed, grown in “soil” made from purely organic material, will be close to as good as any you could buy from the best sources. I’m merely trying to understand how that’s possible, in light of what we think of as terroir.

Yes, always irrigated because the vast majority of produce is a volume game, not a margin based industry. I’m really surprised that I have to state that.

You irrigate produce so you can grow more plants in a smaller footprint. It also grows bigger vegetables and fruits. That equals pounds of produce which is how produce farmers get paid.

Home grown tomatoes taste better than anything in the store(I grew up on 80 acres) and your pot grown tomatoes can match most anything in a store because almost all commercial vegetables and fruits are farmed expecting Vin de Pays compensation. Local farms still farm for Bourgogne broccoli because no one is offering DRC money for it.

Grapevines are perennial plants, and have many, many years to adjust to their environment and develop a signature in the fruit. Most produce are annual plants that don’t have the time to develop nearly as significant a response to environment and differences in terroir from lettuce or broccoli would be harder to see.

And regardless of what anyone else wants to think, I extend terroir beyond soils to include the surrounding inputs to the vineyard.


If you look at cheese terroir is a player again. Why? Maybe because it’s an agricultural product that has a secondary treatment, that developed regionally, that allows a further differentiation from just milk(which does have a sense of terroir and season).

And to be clear Allen, you were the one twisting the words in terroir thread.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

John, olives and tree grown fruits are an interesting example. Maybe because they grow on trees that can get old, a la vines? And that means those that don’t show great quality won’t continue to be farmed? I absolutely agree that much american produce is mediocre. I almost never get tomatoes here that rival those I remember from the south of France. And the best nectarine of my life remains one I bought at the Versailles farmers market, and ate on the banks of the canal in view of the palace

Still I think a focus on terroir is far less for any product other than grapes. But really my point in this tangent was that we can grow high quality produce without any actual soil at all, and what does that tell us about terroir, and what the function of soil really is?

Before someone accuses me of not believing in terroir, that’s absolutely not the case. But I grow less certain every day that the reasons are anything like what we are often told they are.

By high quality do you mean sweet? Or flavorful? Or uniquely flavorful?

You state yourself that the best produce you remember is from the country where the commitment to the idea of terroir has the strongest foothold(and where irrigation loses a grower their AOC) and then say that because you grow nice tomatoes (at a premium mind you) without dirt there’s no terroir?

And in my opinion terroir exists in irrigated fruit and vineyards. The added water makes an impact in how the wines taste but that doesn’t somehow invalidate terroir.

There’s such a loss in flavor in the produce most of us find at the store that most of us don’t know what we’re missing. I split a grass-fed cow pastured on a biodynamically farmed field with some friends several years ago, and the first thing that I cooked were burgers. With the first bite, I realized that I hadn’t had meat like that since I was in high school living on the farm.

Not sure why I would bother to spend more time pointing out that terroir isn’t disproved by the absence of soil. Nor do I yhink that anyone limiting terroir to being a product solely of soil could ever actually believe in that definition, things like latitude, and elevation do matter.

[John_Morris]

Marcus - Your point about vines and trees adapting to the environment is very interesting.

[Wes_Barton]

Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isn’t invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?

The tomatoes i get from my raised bed, grown in “soil” made from purely organic material, will be close to as good as any you could buy from the best sources. I’m merely trying to understand how that’s possible, in light of what we think of as terroir.

You should be able to grow some tomato varieties that taste better than you can buy. Aside from your particular site, expert advice (eg. Dr, Carolyn Male) says that what varieties shine or fail to at your site in a given year does not give you a very good prediction how they will perform another year.

As far as soil goes, I’ve had toms in pots, a raised bed, improved and not-so-well-improved soil all at the same time. Mostly scatter-shot (ie. 63 plants, 54 varieties), but I got enough direct comparison and subsequent follow-up. Some clearly preferred one medium over another, both for how they grow and how the fruit tastes.

Different tomato varieties have different ripening thresholds. A good portion of reds are nasty if they don’t get enough heat. Others, often noted as “early” can ripen and taste “correct” in cooler months (pro-tip: in our area that means some of these will sometimes continue producing through FEBRUARY some years.) A favorite common early Lemon Boy gives rich tropical flavors in the summer and lean, lemony fruit in the fall. Perhaps the latter is how they’d show in San Francisco in the summer.

There is such a thing as dry farming tomatoes.

Peppers struggle in my heavy clay soil, since their roots don’t get the warmth they want. In pots, they produce 20+ times as much fruit in a season.

With annual crops, farmers can heavily manipulate the soil. As Marcus noted, they are going for maximum production volume, not taste. How come no one talks about the terroir of Central Valley grapes?

The Santa Clara Valley was once famous for its tomatoes, with quite a few major canneries.

If you want to look at the most researched and understood crop, it’s cannabis. I’d argue the hydroponic masters are actively creating and managing terroir of sorts, because their prime motivation is unique and distinct characteristics. That’s the polar opposite of grocery store produce.

[Oliver_McCrum]

The french absolutely do!!! The source of vegetables is almost always stated in out local greengrocer.

Oh sure, we have plenty of artisan producers here as well, and lots of restaurant menus will call out their sources. But those are the names of producers, not a plot of land. It’s the producers that have reputations, not the land itself, at least around here. Of course, certain regions are noted for what they grow, but I perceive that more for climate than soil. And vegetables are almost always grown in richer valley soils.

The Italians do too. There are DOPs all over Italy; I would bet that a visit to a farmer’s market in any part of Italy would show the stands advertising particular vegetables from particular terroirs; the market I visit in Piedmont sells leeks from one, peppers from another, the famous red onions from Tropea, on and on. Not to mention the different tomatoes from volcanic soils near Vesuvius, or of course different olive oils.

[Alan_Rath]

You state yourself that the best produce you remember is from the country where the commitment to the idea of terroir has the strongest foothold(and where irrigation loses a grower their AOC) and then say that because you grow nice tomatoes (at a premium mind you) without dirt there’s no terroir?

Not sure why I would bother to spend more time pointing out that terroir isn’t disproved by the absence of soil. Nor do I yhink that anyone limiting terroir to being a product solely of soil could ever actually believe in that definition, things like latitude, and elevation do matter.

Sigh. In almost every post I’ve reiterated my belief in terroir. Though I am indeed asking, if we can grow excellent produce in the total absence of inorganic soil (or even hydroponically, in the absence of any solid materials at all, as Wes points out), do we need to question the role of soil and rocks in our definition of terroir? Is it actually the most important aspect of terroir? Maybe it is, but not for the most obvious reasons, but for all the indirect reasons we’ve covered here and elsewhere, like water and heat retention, ability to support flora and fauna, etc.

When I say some of my best experiences were in France (or Italy, Spain, and other places), a part of that is the experience itself. Eating a nectarine in sight of Versailles palace, or a tomato salad at an outdoor Nice cafe on the beach is bound to add a notch to the experience. I’ve had amazingly good fruits and vegetables grown here as well. And yes, every farmers market stand advertises their location, I have learned which stands have certain produce I prefer over others. But I honestly have never heard a produce grower talk about their soil. Would produce grown on thin, rocky soils be better than rich loamy alluvial soils, like grapes? I assume it never happens, because it’s not productive enough to be profitable.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Just my opinion, soils play a part in terroir but are only a part of it.

I came to that opinion from both working in the vineyard and watching the wines. Attempting to look at all of the things that are unique to a site and the cellar it goes into led me to believe that the expression of terroir is compiled from many inputs rather than just the soils the vines are grown in.


But what would one define terroir in a tomato by? Is it being sweet and ripe? Or is it tasting like tomato?

Potted tomatoes and hydroponically grown produce rarely lack for water or nutrients. So the plants grow big, the fruit is prolific and accumulates sugar. That’s different from what garden fruit typically tastes like if it’s grown without amendments and minimal water. Maybe tomatoes aren’t really the best fruit to look at for terroir in the US, given the native habitat is Central and South America.

Well aware that you believe in terroir. But how many people could speak knowledgeably about terroir when they first began tasting wines? How many could learn even a rudimentary understanding of it if we didn’t have a historical context to learn about terroir from? And other experienced tasters as mentors?

As you noted, there is no conversation about terroir in other fruits. Without an existing understanding of what tomato terroir looks like, there isn’t any way to know what to look for. Just being good tasting isn’t really what terroir is about(which I am sure you know). And I completely agree with your last thought.

[Wes_Barton]

Would produce grown on thin, rocky soils be better than rich loamy alluvial soils, like grapes? I assume it never happens, because it’s not productive enough to be profitable.

Note there’s an important difference between fruits (tomatoes, peppers, grapes) and vegetables (spinach, celery). Plants are balancing how much energy to put into fruiting vs. vegetative growth. That’s an important part of vine training and soil management. Soil nitrogen content is a big deal for both grapes and tomatoes. Too much availability spurs vegetative growth at the expense of flavor development.

Another similarity to compare in grapes vs other produce and home grown vs grocery store (with farmers market somewhere in the middle) is optimal expression. On the vine grapes develop, then begin losing aromatic compounds as flavors continue to evolve. (Often enough, depending on the variety et al, the best aromas are there at peak where grapes picked at that point would make a harsh wine - though a percentage at that ripeness would add complexity.) Anyway, so many veggies are picked well past peak ripeness for both much bigger volume and increased shelf-stability. Aromatics dissipate and increasing mass is not accompanied by increased flavor compounds (or, at least not the same, Cilantro and parsley transition from wonderful, delicate, lifting aromatics to thick, dull, soapy dreck) Favas taste much better a little before they’re typically picked, and can be picked much earlier, before the shells become fibrous, and used like string beans. Similarly, the very young leaves can be used in salads, and taste close to green pea. Moderately young they can be cooked like greens (spinach, chard). Rambling tangential advice aside, if you’re going to look for terroir in other fruits and veggies you should be doing it understanding what and where the peak expressions are and how to achieve them.

[Anton_D]

Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isn’t invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?

The tomatoes i get from my raised bed, grown in “soil” made from purely organic material, will be close to as good as any you could buy from the best sources. I’m merely trying to understand how that’s possible, in light of what we think of as terroir.

Yes, always irrigated because the vast majority of produce is a volume game, not a margin based industry. I’m really surprised that I have to state that.

You irrigate produce so you can grow more plants in a smaller footprint. It also grows bigger vegetables and fruits. That equals pounds of produce which is how produce farmers get paid.

Home grown tomatoes taste better than anything in the store(I grew up on 80 acres) and your pot grown tomatoes can match most anything in a store because almost all commercial vegetables and fruits are farmed expecting Vin de Pays compensation. Local farms still farm for Bourgogne broccoli because no one is offering DRC money for it.

Grapevines are perennial plants, and have many, many years to adjust to their environment and develop a signature in the fruit. Most produce are annual plants that don’t have the time to develop nearly as significant a response to environment and differences in terroir from lettuce or broccoli would be harder to see.

And regardless of what anyone else wants to think, I extend terroir beyond soils to include the surrounding inputs to the vineyard.


If you look at cheese terroir is a player again. Why? Maybe because it’s an agricultural product that has a secondary treatment, that developed regionally, that allows a further differentiation from just milk(which does have a sense of terroir and season).

And to be clear Allen, you were the one twisting the words in terroir thread.

So much greatness here.

1. My wife’s uncle grew up in Wisconsin and was an apple farmer: he could tell you whose orchard and what section apples came from.

2. I grew up in the Sierras and we would go harvest pine nuts: we could tell differences area to area and we even had a favorite tree. Those were some magical pine nuts. Almost a touch of mango.

For dairy, seasonal and yearly differences, for sure. As well as local microbes from location to location.

Heck, in SF there is cave terroir for different sourdoughs.

Time and place and unique conditions are part of the vast joy of being part of the ‘tasting’ life!

(I hope that all wasn’t too too.)

Thanks, Marcus!

[John_Morris]

Great stories of the apples and pine nuts.

And Bay Area sourdough (though not a plant) is another great example – a function of indigenous yeast.

[John_Morris]

… Anyway, so many veggies are picked well past peak ripeness for both much bigger volume and increased shelf-stability. Aromatics dissipate and increasing mass is not accompanied by increased flavor compounds …

And then there are tomatoes, which are picked underripe, green and flavorless and gassed to turn red because they ship better that way.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Marcus, you continue to twist my logic in this discussion, as you did in the terroir thread. I actually made no claims, I raised the question of why terroir isn’t invoked nearly as much outside of winegrowing. To my knowledge, produce is grown mainly in deep, fertile soils (by the way, always irrigated, at least here in California). No one is growing broccoli on hillside schist, or rock strewn thin soils. Why is that? Are we eating vegetables that are the equivalent of simple Bourgogne, when we could be eating Musigny?

The tomatoes i get from my raised bed, grown in “soil” made from purely organic material, will be close to as good as any you could buy from the best sources. I’m merely trying to understand how that’s possible, in light of what we think of as terroir.

Yes, always irrigated because the vast majority of produce is a volume game, not a margin based industry. I’m really surprised that I have to state that.

You irrigate produce so you can grow more plants in a smaller footprint. It also grows bigger vegetables and fruits. That equals pounds of produce which is how produce farmers get paid.

Home grown tomatoes taste better than anything in the store(I grew up on 80 acres) and your pot grown tomatoes can match most anything in a store because almost all commercial vegetables and fruits are farmed expecting Vin de Pays compensation. Local farms still farm for Bourgogne broccoli because no one is offering DRC money for it.

Grapevines are perennial plants, and have many, many years to adjust to their environment and develop a signature in the fruit. Most produce are annual plants that don’t have the time to develop nearly as significant a response to environment and differences in terroir from lettuce or broccoli would be harder to see.

And regardless of what anyone else wants to think, I extend terroir beyond soils to include the surrounding inputs to the vineyard.


If you look at cheese terroir is a player again. Why? Maybe because it’s an agricultural product that has a secondary treatment, that developed regionally, that allows a further differentiation from just milk(which does have a sense of terroir and season).

And to be clear Allen, you were the one twisting the words in terroir thread.

So much greatness here.

1. My wife’s uncle grew up in Wisconsin and was an apple farmer: he could tell you whose orchard and what section apples came from.

2. I grew up in the Sierras and we would go harvest pine nuts: we could tell differences area to area and we even had a favorite tree. Those were some magical pine nuts. Almost a touch of mango.

For dairy, seasonal and yearly differences, for sure. As well as local microbes from location to location.

Heck, in SF there is cave terroir for different sourdoughs.

Time and place and unique conditions are part of the vast joy of being part of the ‘tasting’ life!

(I hope that all wasn’t too too.)

Thanks, Marcus!

Thanks Anton!

I have laughed a lot at your humorous posts here, and am happy to give something back.

[David_Bu3ker]

Got the first strawberries from the local farm today. One farm berry has more flavor than an entire quart of Driscoll’s berries from Costco.

[A_So]

… Anyway, so many veggies are picked well past peak ripeness for both much bigger volume and increased shelf-stability. Aromatics dissipate and increasing mass is not accompanied by increased flavor compounds …

And then there are tomatoes, which are picked underripe, green and flavorless and gassed to turn red because they ship better that way.

The Vesuvius piennolo are the Appellation Romanee-Conti Controlee of tomatoes

[LasseK1]

I just received Jamie Goode’s third edition of his Wine Science book. Not that far in yet, but already very interesting and it discusses soil and terrior.

So might be worth looking it up, if that is of interest to any one of you.

[Oliver_McCrum]

… Anyway, so many veggies are picked well past peak ripeness for both much bigger volume and increased shelf-stability. Aromatics dissipate and increasing mass is not accompanied by increased flavor compounds …

And then there are tomatoes, which are picked underripe, green and flavorless and gassed to turn red because they ship better that way.

The Vesuvius piennolo are the Appellation Romanee-Conti Controlee of tomatoes

Gustiamo sells them, they are very expensive but IMO very worth it.

[Alan_Rath]

And then there are tomatoes, which are picked underripe, green and flavorless and gassed to turn red because they ship better that way.

The Vesuvius piennolo are the Appellation Romanee-Conti Controlee of tomatoes

Gustiamo sells them, they are very expensive but IMO very worth it.

Thanks, just went on my list. Any other foods they sell to make it worth an order?

[A_So]

The Vesuvius piennolo are the Appellation Romanee-Conti Controlee of tomatoes

Gustiamo sells them, they are very expensive but IMO very worth it.

Thanks, just went on my list. Any other foods they sell to make it worth an order?

The Sicilian pistachio spread