Busting terroir myths: The science of soil and wine taste

WINE TALK
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That’s not unusual actually. My wife sees colors that she associates with tastes and flavors. We all figure out how to make things meaningful to us.

The problem is that those things are so highly personal they just don’t translate to universal, or even widely-understood concepts. For example, the other night my wife mentioned that something just seemed “brown” to her. She’s actually a great taster, but I have no idea what she meant. And she’s also color-blind, so whatever she sees as brown is not what I see - she conflates olive, taupe, some grays, and real browns into the same thing.

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I completely disagree. While I find cherry flavors in many wines, it’s certainly not close to a majority, and there’s a big difference between the smell and taste of a sour red cherry and a black cherry. The former is common in pinot, sangiovese and tempranillo, but it would be very atypical in a cabernet. You need to be specific about what kind of cherry, but that descriptor tells me a lot about where the wine lies on the fruit spectrum from red to dark.

Exactly!

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I think the problem is many often use “cherry” as a generic term, so it gets thrown around as a default red fruit, when they aren’t actually getting a specific cherry note.

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I don’t see it so commonly in professional notes.

Of course, if the threshold for banning a term. as Eric suggests, were that it’s used indiscriminately and improperly, then we’d all have to remain mum about the wines we taste. Certainly, “minerality” would be off limits. [snort.gif]

“Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.” (=“Those things of which we cannot speak, we must pass over in silence.”) – Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1921)

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First, any discussion that leads to a Wittgenstein quote can’t be all bad :slight_smile:

Cherries: Wes was correct…I was complaining about the use of Cherries when people really mean ‘generic red fruit (medium acid)’. But more than that, I was defending minerality as a descriptor and went too far with attacking cherries. Really, I like cherries (except when they’re over ripe). But when I see a tasting note mentioning raspberries or blackberries, I usually assume that’s what they meant, but I wonder what they meant when they said cherries.

One side comment: It’s my impression that mentioning raspberries in a tasting note implies that the wine was less ripe, and wine with blackberries indicates a wine more ripe (with cherries being in the middle). Yet, growing up, blackberries were one of the more interesting ‘less ripe’ fruit that I had access to. Course, having a better understanding of the tasting note author helps a lot here, but sometimes that’s hard.

My problem is that I’ve only seen this argument in a ‘minerality’ context… i.e. ‘the smell/taste sensation we are trying to describe with the word “insert the blank” isn’t caused directly by “insert the blank” in the wine’…despite the fact that ‘insert the blank’ reasonably applies to any number of things (earthy, for example) where we don’t know why/how they exist, and yet minerality is the only one that’s singled out. And who cares what the exact chemistry is behind a specific flavor. Ok, I would be interested to understand this but that interest wouldn’t make the appreciation/drinking of wine better for me…it would make the appreciation of wine chemistry more interesting. And I rarely am interested in wine chemistry while I’m drinking it, so personally I don’t see much of an overlap here. How any flavors/textures exist in wine is a complex and a not well understood topic, so beating up on minerality vs anything else doesn’t make sense to me.

Wasserman isn’t the first to complain about ‘fruit-salad language’ (hmmm, maybe he is, not sure, but plenty of other folks have). I think his suggestion of a way of discussing texture in wine via shapes is interesting and useful. I’ve seen a number of well written tasting notes here, and elsewhere, that lean heavily on descriptors as round, linear & others. Maybe geometric is the wrong metaphor, not sure, but it seems like an interesting start.

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Sensory perceptions are highly individual.

Anyone who tries to decouple olfactory and taste input hasn’t looked at the most recent research.

Standardizing these things is an effort in futility that only exists with wine schools, wine writers and geeky societies. This is the reason wine writers have one of the most difficult jobs. It is also the reason, to my view, many are structuralists like Meadows and not trying to be hyperdescriptive to elements that have both olfactory and taste origins. They still make mistakes.


The first paper below is a relatively new one but VERY important. It is intraoral insertion of an odorant that has defined olfactory paths. As you can see the sensory processing and receptive cortical fields are multi system. Somatosensory, gustatory and olfactory. Feel, taste and smell. Fun discussion.

BTW, look at the statement that our understanding of gustatory pathways is still in flux.

Still doesn’t mean that terroir doesn’t exist. champagne.gif


J Neurophysiol. 2017 Mar 1;117(3):1293-1304. doi: 10.1152/jn.00802.2016. Epub 2016 Dec 21.
Single-neuron responses to intraoral delivery of odor solutions in primary olfactory and gustatory cortex.
Maier JX1.
Author information
Abstract
Smell plays a major role in our perception of food. Odorants released inside the mouth during consumption are combined with taste and texture qualities of a food to guide flavor preference learning and food choice behavior. Here, we built on recent physiological findings that implicated primary sensory cortex in multisensory flavor processing. Specifically, we used extracellular recordings in awake rats to characterize responses of single neurons in primary olfactory (OC) and gustatory cortex (GC) to intraoral delivery of odor solutions and compare odor responses to taste and plain water responses. The data reveal responses to olfactory, oral somatosensory, and gustatory qualities of intraoral stimuli in both OC and GC. Moreover, modality-specific responses overlap in time, indicating temporal convergence of multisensory, flavor-related inputs. The results extend previous work suggesting a role for primary OC in mediating influences of taste on smell that characterize flavor perception and point to an integral role for GC in olfactory processing.NEW & NOTEWORTHY Food perception is inherently multisensory, taking into account taste, smell, and texture qualities. However, the neural mechanisms underlying flavor perception remain unknown. Recording neural activity directly from the rat brain while animals consume multisensory flavor stimuli, we demonstrate that information about odor, taste, and mouthfeel of food converges on primary taste and smell cortex. The results suggest that processing of naturalistic, multisensory information involves an interacting network of primary sensory areas.
Copyright © 2017 the American Physiological Society.

Int J Obes (Lond). Author manuscript; available in PMC 2010 Jun 1.
Published in final edited form as:
Int J Obes (Lond). 2009 Jun; 33(Suppl 2): S34–S43.
doi: 10.1038/ijo.2009.70
PMCID: PMC2726647
NIHMSID: NIHMS131899
PMID: 19528978
The gustatory cortex and multisensory integration
Ivan E. de Araujo1 and Sidney A. Simon2
Author information Copyright and License information Disclaimer
The publisher’s final edited version of this article is available at Int J Obes (Lond)
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.
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Abstract
The central gustatory pathways are part of the brain circuits upon which rest the decision to ingest or reject a food. The quality of food stimuli, however, relies not only on their taste but also on properties such as odor, texture and temperature. We will review anatomical and functional evidence showing that the central gustatory system, in particular its cortical aspect, functions as an integrative circuit where taste-responsive neurons also display sensitivity to somatosensory and olfactory stimulation. In addition, gustatory pathways are modulated by the internal state of the body, with neuronal responses to tastes changing according to variations in physiological parameters such as gastrointestinal hormones and blood glucose levels. Therefore, rather than working as the receptive field of peripheral taste receptor cells, the central gustatory pathways seem to operate as a multisensory system dedicated to evaluate the biological significance of intra-oral stimuli.

1 Like
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To me there is no doubt that terroir exists. What causes this will be debated for a long time with little resolution. I think the Burgundians did the best they could and have the best argument for or against the existence. Trying to define the science until we understand the physiology will be fruitless in my opinion.

Now for a real debate. Digital lossless steaming versus vinyl for music.

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I’ve been waiting since college at Berkeley to find a context in which that would be apropos! champagne.gif

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I get frustrated with fruit salad notes, but especially with young wines that is sometimes what shows. Michael Broadbent has mentioned “Nahe fruit salad” in any number of his Riesling notes from that region.

OK, with that off my chest…

The structure and palate shape of wine is extremely important to me, especially since for a period of about two years (late 2010 to late 2012) that was mostly what I was able to discern. Having my sense of smell disappear, then slowly return over several years, gave me an interesting view on wine, and the importance of structure and balance. Young wines are often overwhelmed by their fruit, and it’s hard to discern the structure, as it’s draped in fruit salad baby fat. Ultimately the experience I had with recovering my sense of smell (which ultimately took about six years until I really felt “back to normal”) caused me to spend more time focusing on structure and the palate presence (my version of “shape”) of wines, and less time on fruit descriptors. It is a useful focus for blind tasting by the way. A wine’s structure often says much more about its origins than whether it smells of cherries or red raspberries.

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First, any discussion that leads to a Wittgenstein quote can’t be all bad > :slight_smile:

Exactly my thoughts! Well done John!

As far as odor - Don, I don’t think anyone ever disputed that. People think that sniffing a wine in a glass is what matters, but they don’t understand basic physiology. The odors, textures, flavors, etc., that reach our brains through our mouths combine into patterns that we learn to recognize exactly as we recognize visual patterns that let us identify one person’s face from another. It’s why you can distinguish between an aged Riesling and a young Cab.

But that wasn’t the point of the article so long ago! He was talking about rocks. I think Eric is correct in that we talk about a lot of things that aren’t really in the wine, but rocks are problematic because they aren’t things we commonly eat. There is most definitely a red raspberry note in some Grenache I’ve had from Australia and in fact, it’s how I used to distinguish it blind. My guess is that the same molecules that are found in raspberries that give them a distinctive flavor are likely found in those wines. Much like the bell pepper that we get in the Cab Franc family. Our bodies are attuned to certain flavors and we sometimes pick them up in wine, which makes sense if they are berry and fruit flavors in the first place.

But rocks and minerality are someone’s idea of what rocks and minerals would taste like if they had specific tastes, and “flinty” is totally meaningless because flint is a kind of quartz, or silicon dioxide, and it is flavorless and odorless.

OTOH, it’s vegan, kosher, and gluten-free, so it has all the important dietary attributes one could want!

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Just for the record, it sounds like your wife has synesthesia, famously an attribute of Vladimir Nabakov, and less famously of one of my daughters (and just for the record, I think it is also not so uncommon at a low level, a lot of indications are that it is often expressed by young children who don’t “know better”, and I think it is simply regarded as backround noise (so to speak) by many folks).

…
As for “minerality”, I personally try to describe such tastes as akin to things I actually have put in my mouth, like limestone, river pebbles, etc., but I don’t understand all the fuss, as many have mentioned nobody thinks there have to be actual cherries or wet leaves or cat pee in their wine to use these terms, we are just describing the taste. Oh, well.

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My wife, a trained geologist (and chemist) takes rocks and breaks them up by hand (for fragile types) or with a hammer. You do get a whiff of what that rock smells like in the process. Somewhere I have a photo of her and German winemaker Walter Strub smelling rocks in the red soil Pettenthal vineyard.

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Please! You must post that!

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You want to be my divorce lawyer?

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Did I misread the article stating that its the actual lack of physical palate impression, and sometimes even aromas, that makes tasters say “mineral”? And pretty much in wines that see very little, if any, of oak tannin. And something that Michael Browne and I discussed a good number of years ago on one fine afternoon when we tasted through a bunch of KB barrels and the subject of “mineral” came up with one of them. He made same exact observation back then, actually his analysis and take: OLD OAK BARRELS. Made sense back then, and still makes sense now with this latest article referencing same point. Stainless, concrete, old oak (lack of tannin and caked in seams in-between staves limiting air transmission as well, similar to stainless). Its lack of certain physical attributes and notes, per article. “Austere”, if you will. Mostly happening in Old World wines at wineries that cannot afford, or do not want to, new oak, and ending up reusing barrels for many, many years. At least that’s how the article reads to me, but maybe I am prejudiced after the discussion so many years ago and Michael’s point making sense.

I’ve been trying to figure out what “mineral” is, and defines, for decades now, mostly while hearing someone say it during a tasting while I am having same exact wine, and still having no idea what the person is talking about while I re-taste the wine trying to catch that “mineral” reference. And I still think, especially after reading the thread and comments, that “mineral” means different things to different tasters.

GregT, not to make a thread drift, but green bell pepper note in reds signifies underripe fruit. Especially in Cab Franc, and Merlot. Makes id:ing Loire Cab Francs blind easy, its not the terroir that gives them away. IMHO. But I generally agree with your points, and Eric’s.

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There have been umpteen threads on “minerality,” which provide irrebuttable proof of your conclusion.

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Greg is referring to the pyrazines in those wines likely being the same exact type that are in unripe (green) chiles.

Of course canopy management plays a huge role in pyrazine level, since the grapes need some direct sunlight for them to dissipate. Time is, of course, a factor. So is temperature. (A very cool site can retain some, even with extended hang time, adequate sunlight, black fruit ripeness.)

Everything in my experience says the inherent difference in pyrazine levels between CS and CF is myth. Winemaking style, market expectation and acceptance.

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I think that’s an opinion (especially New World viewpoint) not a fact. It’s a secondary flavour that ‘mifetn’ winemakers don’t tend to like preferring primary (fruit) characters with oak being an acceptable secondary flavour for some if any.

If I don’t taste it (bell pepper/leafiness) in cabernet I think the wine lacks varietal character. Only in small amounts though. Too much would make the wine unbalanced IMO.

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I’d think that they must have different levels of pyrazines, because they differ quite a bit in how they ripen - if you pick the grapes at the same time, Cabernet Sauvignon is much higher in pyrazines because it is still underripe. This is quite obvious in Loire, which seems to have the ideal temperatures to grow cool-climate Franc but is often too cool to grow Sauvignon consistently.

However, if you pick the two varieties at more or less same ripeness level, based on among other things, phenolic ripeness, flavor development and seed color, Sauvignon tends to be lower in pyrazines than Franc. This is quite obvious especially in some wines of Friuli, where a producer might have three entry-level wines vinified more or less identically, made from Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon and Carménère. Normally Sauvignon is the least herbaceous and Carménère the most. Franc lies somewhere in the middle.

And finally, on the earlier post, green bell pepper note in reds does not signify underripe fruit in some varieties. You can have a Carménère that is so ripe it is borderline jammy and it still retains those bell pepper notes. Most red varieties show pyrazine flavors of bell peppers when they are underripe, but not all. There is a lot of variation between the grape varieties at which point the pyrazine flavors disappear from the grapes.

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Not to get in over my head but I was just suggesting that it’s the same molecules in the fruits of the pepper and vine. As to how much are in one grape variety vs another, I don’t know. From experience, I think Wes has a good point. All of the so-called Carmenet family has those to some degree. But sunlight makes a big difference in how many remain in the fruit. Linda Bisson did a lot of work on this and it’s largely because of her that we understand how canopy management can really make a difference.

In Chile in particular, they planted the wrong grapes or the wrong sites and managed to get over-ripe and jammy as well as green qualities and those wines to me, were horrible. They’ve improved dramatically over the past 20 years though, and that observation no longer holds true.

I was once at a large tasting and two producers of Cab Franc were in attendance - Bernard Baudry and Pam Starr. Both produce varietal Cab Franc and I like both, but they’re worlds apart stylistically. I introduced the two and they tasted each other’s wines. There’s no way that Baudry could produce a CF like they do in Napa, no matter how hard he tried. And I doubt that Pam’s site could get anything like the style Baudry gets in the Loire. Baudry’s is what you consider CF when you’re thinking about leaner wines with bell pepper notes, and since the grape originated somewhere over there, maybe that’s a “correct” version of the variety. But Pam produces what you get when you transplant that grape into a different environment that has more sun and less dampness and has a longer ripening period. It just becomes a different grape and I suspect that even if they were to use the same clones, the wines would be vastly different because of the wine making style, the environment, and also, as Wes says, the market acceptance.

CF is interesting to me because it is so different in so many different places - WA, MI, NY, CA, all produce it and in each state there are many different iterations. Argentina, Chile, France, Italy, Hungary, Austria, Slovenia and Spain also produce it and again, it’s different in each country and from each site. Not all versions are comparable to those from the Loire or even Bordeaux.

The levels you find will have a lot to do with decisions made in the vineyard, and to a lesser extent, in the cellar.

Things that matter are vegetative growth - more shoots and leaves mean more pyrazines; soil moisture - more moisture increases vegetive growth; leaf maturity - older leaves produce less; fruit exposure to light - more exposure means fewer pyrazines; crop load and rate of fruit maturation; temperature - warmer temps cause malic acid and pyrazines to break down faster; and whether the fruit ripened evenly. Also, the flavors can come from other compounds besides the pyrazines. It’s formed early and breaks down following véraison. But that’s in the fruit. It’s also formed in the leaves and carried to the fruit. That stops obviously when the stem lignifies.

If there are leaves and stems in the mix when grapes are crushed, that also increases the amount of pyrazines, particularly if there are younger leaves involved.

At the end of ripening, it degrades faster than it accumulates, so longer ripening times will reduce it as well.

Of course, the taste of rocks isn’t affected by any of this!!