vineyards have their own AC?
Appellation/ Classification confusion!
Grand Cru’s have their own AC. PC’s are Premier Cru Villages Appelations (attributed to a specific vineyard) … vs. just a Villages Appelation (attributed to a single Village - Morey, Gevrey, Vosne etc.)
The Wine Doctor’s take:
The details of the appellations are laid down in law by the INAO, and there are - perhaps surprisingly to some - only three groups. At the peak are the grand cru appellations, which number 33 in total (the top 2% in the pyramid above); of these 32 are spread along the Côte d’Or, with a single grand cru appellation in Chablis (if this latter point seems at odds with your knowledge of this region you can find more detail in my forthcoming guide to Chablis). Then come the communal appellations, essentially the village wines (the next 45% in the pyramid above), whether the village in question be Chablis itself, or one found in the Côte d’Or (e.g. Pommard), Côte Chalonnaise (e.g. Montagny), Mâconnais (e.g. Pouilly-Fuissé) or Beaujolais (e.g. Fleurie). The pivotal point of confusion here is that premier cru vineyards do not have their own appellations; each of these communal appellations may append the name of a climat (a vineyard) on the label, and these may be classified as premier cru, in which case this will commonly be stated on the label, such as with Pommard Premier Cru Clos du Micault, or it may be an unclassified vineyard, often referred as a lieu-dit (which literally translates as “named place”) such as Pommard Clos des Ursulines. And in some cases, where the wine has been blended from more than one suitably classified vineyard, a wine may be declared as premier cru without any mention of the vineyards of origin - Pommard Premier Cru. These latter wines may also be sourced from grand cru vineyards, of course, having been declassified, usually by winemakers looking to bottle only the very best quality under the grand cru appellation.
FWIW, this is the sentence that I’m questioning -
Each Premier Cru and Grand Cru vineyard has its own AC.
as proof of this, 1er Cru wines show the village name.
1er cru do not have their own AC. think of them as lieux dits with a 1er Cru classification within the village’s AC
Kim, I don’t see that sentence in the paragraph you’re quoting, so maybe it needs the context to be clear. On its own, the sentence appears to be false, unless in context it means that each Premier Cru has it’s own AC, namely that of it’s village. But the 1er Cru is not an AC in itself, and one village can (and does) have multiple 1er Cru.
I’m more interested in his reference to Chablis having only 1 Grand Cru, which is certainly at odds with what I have been taught!
Chuck - Sorry I posed my question poorly. I always understood the classification to be as explained by Chris K (the Wine Doctor) - the paragraph I posted.
However, I’m reading a textbook that states: In Burgundy, however, a vineyard name is attached to a specific plot of land, which is registered in each town hall. Its size rarely alters. Each Premier Cru and Grand Cru vineyard has its own AC. Because of this, while Bordeaux has approximately 60 names protected under the AC system, Burgundy has more than tens times as many, even though the area it has under vine and its total production of wine are less than half that of its illustrious rival.
This is the Wine Doctor’s Chablis explanation:
Although there are seven Chablis vineyards that qualify for this grand title, there are not seven grand cru appellations. Unlike the Côte d’Or, where each grand cru has its own appellation, here we are talking about the climats of the single appellation Chablis Grand Cru. These seven climats lie in a single sweep just to the north of the town, on what is the right bank of the Serein.
maybe here;
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Well, that textbook’s passage would be both wrong and poorly written. As an example, bottles from the 1er Cru Meursault-Perrieres vineyard are labeled “Appellation Meursault 1er Cru Controllee” not “Appellation Meursault-Perrieres 1er Cru Controllee”. The poorly written part is “It’s (sic) size rarely alters”, which implies it can alter its own size. It should read “Its size is rarely altered.”
And yes, the Wine Doctor is also correct with the explanation of the single Chablis Grand Cru appellation, which contains all 7 Grand Cru vineyards (climats).
on the topic of ‘alter’, there has been a history of vineyards being consumed by other, more illustrious vineyards. The common example is Clos de la Roche and Clos St Denis. In this manner, the sizes may be altered with respect to the area decreasing from one is move to another. This is different from simply expanding into area which was not classified previously and attaching a ‘classed’ name.
On this topic, with such a focus on terroir and history in our region, it runs against the the tide to see vineyards consumed in this manner. I could rant further…
vineyards have their own AC?
Appellation/ Classification confusion!
Confusion…yes…it is very true ! Mainly due to failure to distinguish the difference between climats ( = lieux dites = vineyards) and AOCs.
The followingh is a very brief summary ( for someone who is new to Burgundy ) of what I understand.
In Burgundy officially there are 100 AOCs of which 33 Grands Crus Appellations ; 44 Villages Appellations and 23 Regional Appellations.
Out of the 44 Villages Appellations, most of them ( not all ) consist of 2 level of Classifications : Village and 1ieme crus.
So here is the first confusion : how many levels of Classifciatiofn in the AOC systems.
3 or 4 ? I would say : 4. If one looks closely at the wine label. For example juice from the climat Clos St. Jacques in village appellation of Gervey-Chambertin most probably the lebal should say : Appellation Gevery-Chambertin 1ieme Cru Controlee.
Could one label it as : Appellation Gervey-Chambertin Clos St. Jacques 1ieme Cru Controlee ?
Andrew Jefford in his book The New France on page 89 he gave an example ** Appellation Meursault Premier Cru Les Genevrieres Controlee.**
In my view, I do not believe each 1ieme cru vineyard ( = climat or liex-dit ) has their own right within the AOC systems - strictly and legally speaking of course.
So in a way…this is to show that the confusion exists because there is a difference between a climat and a AOC.
I gave you another example :
Andrew Jefford in his book : The New France again on page 89 when he wrote about : The Adventure of the Land - Cote d Or.
He said : there are potentially 500 different appellations. The lowest one…is general regional appellation; then the subregional AOCs; Climb a little higher and you come to the village appellations and then 450 1ieme crus …etc…etc…
I am not sure where he obtained the numbers but officially there is no 2 levels in the regional appellation.
500 different appellations ? How do one count them ? Perhaps he meant that a 1ieme cru…is offically count as a differnet appellation.
My above example is not aim at to say anything negative about the author but just to demonstrate how confusing the AOC system in Burgundy could be ![[head-bang.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/b1cd199e4b2b2988b5107c3c9598fd28dc92a776.gif "[head-bang.gif]"){kind=small}
This is the Wine Doctor's Chablis explanation:
Although there are seven Chablis vineyards that qualify for this grand title, there are not seven grand cru appellations. Unlike the Côte d'Or, where each grand cru has its own appellation, here we are talking about the climats of the single appellation Chablis Grand Cru. These seven climats lie in a single sweep just to the north of the town, on what is the right bank of the Serein.
I would like to add the following to the above :
Yes…there are normally ( or mostly known ) 7 vineyards ( = cliamts or lieux-dits ) in the single Appellation Chablis Grand cru.
But how about the smaller lieu-dit : Cote Bouguerots within the bigger lieu-dit : Bougros.
Or the lieu-dit : La Moutonne whose 2.6 ha straddles Preuses and Vaudesir.
![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
Peter - Thank you for posting. You’ve explained it in a way that makes it very clear.
PETER!! Great to see you posting here, welcome! First posts in and you are clarifying appellation laws, brilliant. Looking forward to more posts from you.
![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
My understanding is that a:
lieu dit = historical place name - such as La Combe d’Orveau that spans village, 1er and GC AOC. It is independent to AOC or climat, though climat take on their lieu dit name. Has no real significance as to the quality of the wine. climat and AOC being more appropriate to use for this.
climat = unofficial geological classification. There may be several climat to make up a single AOC designation, Clos Vougeot example. Climat is not necessarily linked to a lieu dit. I expect most vineyards have more than one climat ( I expect grapes during fermentation and elevage are selected based on climat and then blended, or not, into the final wine - Clos de Tart)
AOC = is either Village, 1er, GC. All GC have a specific vineyard name but 1er and below do not need to. Some vineyard’s may include vines from neighbouring climat - Bonnes Mares (Chambolle-Musigny, Morey St Denis), Clos de Tart (Bonnes-Mares thin strip on that side of the vineyard), a vineyard is likely to have more than one climat, and may or may not have an additional lieu dit associated with it.
I am inclined to think of Cote de Bouguerot as a climat separate to Bougros, but part of Bougros AOC.
La Moutonne, I am inclined to think as a Lieux-dits (as a monopole vineyard name) rather than a special climat, as I expect it includes both Preuses and Vaudesir climat.
OK…Mike. Thanks for posting in post 16 which I appreciated ![[thankyou.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/d/df165fe9c1593d19166ae7e1ffe5e272089cc07b.gif "thankyou"){kind=small}
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To make sure that everything is clear, I would like to be very specific ( in technical terms) to avoid further confusion.
First of all …the french word a lieu-dit is a climat ( or 2 lieux-dits = 2 climats ). So La Moutonne is a lieu-dit ( and not a lieux-dites ).
Lieu-dit in Engish could be translated into name-place ( or vineyard as it is commonly used ).
Yes La Moutonne is a monopole lieu-dit ( or climat or vinyard ); but is it not a monopole AOC like La Tache.
Cote de Bouguerote is a lieu-dit ( smaller in size ) which is situated within a bigger lieu-dit : Bourgos. So in a way…I agree with your statement that Cote de Bouguerote is part of Bourgos.
But when you said Cote de Bouguerote is part of AOC Bougros, then I have problem of accepting your statement …for the following simple reason in that : officially Bougros is only a lieu-dit ( = climat ) within a AOC which is known as : Appellation Chablis Grand Cru Controlee.
AOC = is either Village, 1er, GC. All GC have a specific vineyard name but 1er and below do not need to. Some vineyard's may include vines from neighbouring climat - Bonnes Mares (Chambolle-Musigny, Morey St Denis), Clos de Tart (Bonnes-Mares thin strip on that side of the vineyard), a vineyard is likely to have more than one climat, and may or may not have an additional lieux dite associated with it.
Hmmmm…Mike : I do not understand the reasons why you stated that AOC = is either village, 1er, GC.
I am sorry that I have to be specific in technical terms
There are 33 AOCs in Burgundy which has a Grand Cru status.
To be sure that there is no confusion let me give a example :
Ok…Chambertin is a liex-dite and the offical AOC name is : Appellation Chambertin Controlee. According to the AOC Laws…this AOC ( Appellation Chambertin Controlee ) lists the following 2 lieux-dites which are : Chambertin and CdBeze.
CdBeze is a lieu-dite and the offical AOC name is : Appellation Chambertin-CdBeze Controlee.
Needless to say most Burgundy lovers agree that these 2 AOCs are entitled to Grand Cru statues ( or should I say they have their own right ).
Accordding to the AOC Laws …Appellation Chambertin-CdBeze Controlee …lists only one liex-dite : CdBeze.
What it mean is… …it confirms the basic fact which Burugndy-nuts normal knows : The juice from the liex-dite CdBeze is allowed by laws to be labelled under the two followings AOCs : Appellation Chambertin Controlee and ( or ) Appellation Chambertin-CdBeze Controlee; whereas juice from the liex-dite : Chambertin could only be labelled under the following AOC : Appellation Chambertin Controlee.
Hope my above example does not add more confusion. 
Definitely:
Burgundy (Cote d´Or) Grand Crus are own Appellations (AOCs):
e.g. LA ROMANEE (Appellation controlee)
is the smallest own AOC in France.
Premier Crus are NOT own AOCs, but part of the Village-AOCs - and in addition with the special 1er Cru classification.
e.g. VOSNE-ROMANEE “Les Suchots”
Appellation Vosne-Romanee Premier Cru controlee
In Chablis it´s slightly different: there is ONE AOC “CHABLIS GRAND CRU” - and the seven (or eight) vineyard designations are part of it (similar to a 1er Cru being part of the village AOC):
e.g. CHABLIS “Le Clos” GRAND CRU
Appellation Chablis Grand Cru controlee
For instance it is NOT possible to write:
LE CLOS Grand Cru (Appellation controlee),
just like it is impossible to write “Les Suchots” AOC …
OK?
Gerhard/Peter, Thank you for the clear explanation on the AOCs.
Peter, when you say “First of all …the french word a lieu-dite is a climat” why would there be two words meaning exactly the same thing. Take the lieu-dit “La Combe d’Orveau” in Chambolle-Musigny for example, “Le Combe d’Orveau” has parts in village, 1er and GC vineyards, are you saying that the climat in the GC part, is the same as the climat in the 1er and village part?
Lieu-dit translates to name-place, but the climat, which to me has geological significance, is not necessarily the same as the lieu-dit. I use this logic when thinking of Cote de Bouguerote in Bougros, which I expect has a different climat within Bougros. The lieu-dit refers to the climat, the climat being unique to the wines structure takes precedence over the name, which does not necessarily have geological consideration or significance.
I expect 99% of the time the climat and lieu-dit are one and the same, as the geology is typically unique to each vineyard, and each vineyard has its own name. But this does not necessarily have to be the case, as in some of the vineyards mentioned in this thread where there are a number of distinct geological “climat” that make up the one vineyard.