Burgundy Classification clarification. Two books two different answers. Do Premier Cru

WINE TALK
21

Alright, just to put this out there:

Lieu Dit (named place)

Lieux Dits (named places)

A climat is just one way to say ‘specific vineyard’

22

Not Peter, but I might be able to add in some detail.
A good example of climat versus Lieu Dit would be Clos de Vougeot Grand Cru “Dix Journaux”

Clos de Vougeot is the AOC
Clos de Vougeot is also the Climat
The lieu dit of the climat is Dix Journaux
…this is how the BIVB explained it to me at least

23

Ok…Mike and Ray.

I think we are split hair here [highfive.gif] .

There is one thing very clear to me at least : liex-dite and climat is the same.

Please see below …a copy of the very first part of the official text ( in French ) regarding the AOC : Chambolle-Musigny.

Here is my explanation of this text in English for those who are not French speaking. Right after Art 1er…the text listed the followings :

Sections : it starts with B…then …C…etc…

Right after the words Sections, then come the word : liexs-dites ou climats.

So in my view and according the AOC Laws : a liex-dite and a climat has exactly the same meaning.








AOC Chambolle-Musigny

Décret du 19 mars 1998 relatif à certaines appellations d’origine contrôlées de la région Bourgogne - J.O n° 72 du 26 Mars 1998


Art. 1er. - Seuls ont droit à l’appellation contrôlée " Chambolle-Musigny " les vins rouges qui, répondant aux conditions ci-après, ont été récoltés sur les territoires suivants :

SECTIONS CLIMATS OU LIEUX-DITS CONTENANCE
h. a. c.
B Les Cras 4 21 15
Les Carrières 72 40
Les Chatelots 2 53 08
Les Combottes 64 15
Les Charmes 2 65 35
Les Plantes 78 15
Les Grands Murs 75 17
Les Fousselottes 4 08 55
Derrière la Grange 72 05
Les Gruenchers 2 95 60
Les Groseilles 1 51 50
Les Noirots 2 87 70
Les Lavrottes 99 40
Les Baudes 3 54 70
Les Sentiers 4 94 10
Les Bonnes Mares 13 70 50
Les Fuées 6 17 20
C Les Danguerins 2 75 10
Les Creux Baissants 3 83 60
Les Echeseaux 2 28 05
Derrière le Four 3 88 00
Les Pas de Chats 1 82 90
Les Barettes 90 65
Les Chablots 2 03 05
Les Borniques 1 47 15
Les Fouchères 2 80 75
Les Guéripes 1 71 55
Les Argillères 1 67 35
C Les Charmes 5 82 05
Les Sordes 35 80
Les Condemennes 5 11 90
Les Babillières 3 73 80
Les Nacoires 3 12 80
Les Bas-Doix 1 79 40
Les Hauts-Doix 1 76 00
Les Amoureuses 5 35 75
Les Musigny 5 89 80
Les Petits Musigny 4 15 55
La Combe d’Orveau 5 09 35
D Les Charmes 82 05
Les Plantes 1 77 80
Aux Combottes 2 28 35
Le Clos de l’Orme 1 76 95
Les Mal Carrées 2 20 50
Les Mombies 2 18 50
Les Maladières 2 54 55
Aux-Croix 2 53 10
Aux Echanges 2 58 35
Les Athets 4 75 90
Les Herbues 6 18 45
Les Gamaires 3 37 55
Les Bussières 4 19 65
Les Drazey 3 80 40
Les Fremières 4 62 60
Aux Beaux Bruns 2 45 25
Les Chardannes 3 62 30


(Modifié, D. 16 mars 1963, art. 4.) - Pour les vins produits dans les parcelles classées en " premier cru ", l’appellation contrôlée susvisée pourra être complétée soit par le nom du climat d’origine, soit par l’expression " premier cru ", soit par l’un et l’autre. Le nom du climat d’origine devra être placé après celui de l’appellation communale et imprimé en caractères dont les dimensions, aussi bien en hauteur qu’en largeur, ne devront pas dépasser celles de l’appellation.
Pour les autres climats d’origine non classés en " premier cru " dans les conditions prévues à l’alinéa précédent, le nom du climat pourra être adjoint à celui de l’appellation communale. Dans ce cas, il devra être imprimé en caractères dont les dimensions, aussi bien en hauteur qu’en largeur, ne devront pas dépasser la moitié de celles de l’appellation.

24 
Take the lieu-dit "La Combe d'Orveau" in Chambolle-Musigny for example, "Le Combe d’Orveau" has parts in village, 1er and GC vineyards, are you saying that the climat in the GC part, is the same as the climat in the 1er and village part?

OK…Mike : let talk more regarding the above statement.

Yes - you are right in that the lieu-dite La Combe d’Orveau has parts in village, 1er and GC.

No - I am not saying that : the climat in the GC part is the same as the climat in the 1er and village part …for the simple reason …that it could be not so.

In Burugndy each parcels of the land is registered in the Cadastre.

All one needs is to check and look at the text of the AOC : Appellation Musginy Controlee and also the text of the AOC : Appellation Chambolle-Musigny Controlee …then one will see they are not the same parcels of land. [wink.gif]

25

Pardon the interruption, but why do you guys even care about the technical AOC labeling? Does it make any difference in any one’s purchasing decisions? I pay attention to producer, classification, lieu dite if applicable, and price. I never look at the AOC labeling, and couldn’t care less if a wine is, say, AOC-labeled as Chablis Grand Cru or GC with more specific info, if that info is already on the label somewhere else anyway. What am I missing?

26 
Pardon the interruption, but why do you guys even care about the technical AOC labeling? Does it make any difference in any one's purchasing decisions? I pay attention to producer, classification, lieu dite if applicable, and price. I never look at the AOC labeling, and couldn't care less if a wine is, say, AOC-labeled as Chablis Grand Cru or GC with more specific info, if that info is already on the label somewhere else anyway. What am I missing?

Hmmm…I posted because Kim Caldwell asked an interesting question.

Does technical aspect in Burgundy affect buying decision ?

Yes…if one cares about them; and no if one does not care.

Is there a right or wrong answer to many subjects regarding Burgundy ?

I notice that you pay attention to producer, classifcation, liex-dite if applicable and price when you are buying Burgundy. It is excellent and hope you will keep on doing this.

But once in a while, someone who loves burgundy, may run into a more complicated situation. I gave you an example :

William Fevre makes the 2 following wines. (1) a Grand Cru Chablis with the label : Appellation Bougros Grand Cru Chablis Controlee and (2) another Grand Cru Chablis with the label : Appellation Bourgos - Cote Bourguerots Grand Cru Chablis Controlee.

The above 2 wines were priced differently in Quebec Canada with the latter approx. 10% more. Meadows gave 2 different ratings to these two wines - always the latter 1 or 2 points higher.

For most wine lovers …they do not care much. Or put it differently : why should they ?

But for some Burgundy-nuts ( like me ) we care.

I for for one would like to do know whey these 2 wines were labelled differently ?

Or…if ineed Meadows is right in his rating of these 2 wines differently ?

Guess…what I am trying to say is :

There are different ways to enjoy Burgundy and that Burgundy is not for everyones. It is very complicate, and there are lots of exceptions; and then worse, within these exceptions there are more exceptions.

Cheers…

27

For the most part climats=lieu dit. But …

See http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000021099931&dateTexte=vig" onclick=“window.open(this.href);return false;
and http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000021218369&dateTexte=vig” onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have not read anything that I consider authoritative on the climat/lieu dit debate. I do note that:

lieu dit = place name. This is controlled by the town hall/land office. Another way of looking at it is that lieu dit does not fall under the control of INAO.

Climat = vineyard (?) or something close to it. As far as I can tell, climat is defined by INAO.

The trouble that INAO appears to have is that even with control over defining what a climat is, they are still dealing with land and have to ultimately refer back to Lieu Dit. And when INAO documentation says ‘Climat or Lieu Dit’, it confuses everyone. But things become a little clearer when you refer to INAO documents, such as the 2 referenced above, that differentiate between Climat and Lieu Dit.

I think it is best to just stick to using climat in discussing appellation.

FWIW, you may also come across ‘Climat’ and ‘Sous Climat’ where Sous Climat is used to refer to the various Lieux Dits that form a single Climat.

28

Peter is absolutely right.
Not only that there are tiny - but maybe important - differences between several 1er and even Grand Crus …
but the labelling (which has certainly improved over the last two decades - wasn´t always unambiguous , sometimes confusing, even illegal!

especially when you are purchasing old bottles at auctions or from private sources you´ve got to know quite a bit about it.
For intance
CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY
LA COMBE D´ORVEAU

isn´t the same as
CHAMBOLLE-MUSIGNY
“Combe d´Orveau”
…
and in many cases 1er Cru has not been mentioned at all.

29

Hi WK Choy…thanks for posting.

I always enjoy reading everything you said. So when WK Choy speaks…Peter Chiu listen.

So in way…Mike During was right when he said : I expect 99% of the time the climat and lieu-dit are one and the same,…* [welldone.gif]


Hi Gerhard P - thanks for posting.

Nice we could talk more.

30

Peter, thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, I wasn’t asking to criticize you for caring about small details, which certainly do matter in Burgundy. I was asking because I wanted to know what I was missing about the AOC portion of labeling, and you’ve answered that nicely. Thanks.

Gerhard, just to make sure I’m following your examples - it seems to me you’re going beyond what I was asking about (specifically, about AOC labeling portions) and expanding to peculiarities of labeling of other portions (e.g. vineyard name) that go beyond just the AOC portion, no? Or if not, can you please clarify a bit?

31

Thank you for the detailed information all.

Very interesting table with different columns for Climat and Lieu dit. I see that Clos de la Mouchere is a climat with no corresponding lieu dit, so to call it a lieu dit would be incorrect. There are many examples that swing both ways.

For my own understanding where the names are the same, I would prefer to refer to them as climat as the geographical significance has the greater merit over the lieu dit name which, as we have found in certain cases, is not a good reference to the geology, the geology being all important to the wine as it is significant to its terroir.

32

Alan,
It might well be that I misunderstood you a bit … but you wrote essentially:

The AOC-designation gives the consumer the exact indication from where the wine LEGALLY is from.

Take the following labelling:
DOMAINE D´ARDHUY
Clos des Langres
Monopole
Vintage …

Ok, you might even know it by heart, but if NOT
you are completely lost where the wine is from, if it is actually a Burgundy …
from the Cote de Nuits, C.d.Beaune … Maconnais, Chalonnaise, Beaujolais … could even be from the Loire or the Rhone … and in connection you do not know the variety its made from …

… IF there is not the indication:
Appellation COTE DE NUITS-VILLAGES Controlée

Three other examples (and I´m leaving everything out that indicates the AOC):

Chateau de Mercey
Pinot Noir

Domaine de L´Abbaye
du Petit Quincy
Cote de Grisey
Dominique Gruhier – Vigneron

Clos de Thorey
Premier Cru
Monopole
Domaine Rodet (Mercurey)

Can you tell me what´s in the bottle if the AOC-designation is missing? (without using Mr.Gooooogle !!!)

Maybe you can if you are a great freak and learned your lessons very well - but the mean consumer can´t for sure.

Or am I still wrong - and you only meant the small print between Apellation … and … controlée ??

33

Thanks Gerhard. A little bit of both, but I think the issue was more me than you… I was forgetting that a lot of the info that I was viewing as classification is actually AOC info. Also I have been buying only things where I do already know that kind of info lately, thus forgetting how much you do rely on those pieces if unfamiliar. Excellent examples - I actually did run into some bottles of D’Ardhuy Clos des Langres several months ago and was at a loss as to where it was from!

34

To simplify, the answer to the original question is - no! 1er Cru VINEYARDS do NOT have their own appellation. The Appellation is simply VILLAGE name- 1er Cru, which covers ALL of the 1er cru parcels within that village.

35

Alan,
to come back to the point:
I think it is very wise that an AOC label in France has either to repeat the exact legal origin between the words
APPELLATION … CONTROLEE

or to put
APPELLATION CONTROLEE
directly below the legal designation …
otherwise for instance the producers location or a phantasy brand name could be confused with the AOC …

I also think it to be a huge improvement that
GRAND CRU and
1er Cru (Premier Cru)
HAS to be clearly stated on the label - which was not the case some 2+ decades ago … just take those climats where only part is 1er Cru, the rest is Village AOC …

36

[cheers.gif]

37

Thanks Peter, quite right to point out those Chablis GC ‘anomalies’ as part of this (to me) fascinating discussion re burgundy classifications.

I do discuss these two extra names on the page which Kim is quoting from above, here:
http://www.thewinedoctor.com/regionalguides/burgundypart06.shtml

In short I tend to think of Côte Bouguerots as a sub-climat of Bougros, whereas La Moutonne is a unique situation giving two of the seven well-known climates a split personality; the vines within this defined area of the Vaudésir and Les Preuses climats could go by those two names, but Domaine Long-Depaquit/Albert Bichot (who own these vines) have a specific agreement with the INAO to use the La Moutonne designation. I can’t think of another good analogy off the top of my head for this, the only one that comes to mind is the Barsac/Sauternes situation where the Barsac properties could produce wines under either appellation by choice, but it is not perfect as this concerns appellations not climats, and it is an appellation within an appellation rather than straddling two others.

I’m no Burgundy expert (I tend to focus on the Loire and Bordeaux these days) so definitely willing to be corrected on any of these issues, but very happy the pages on Chablis have been of use or at least helped Kim stimulate some good debate.

38

Chris…thanks for posting.

Sorry I did not post earlier. As I need to spent time reading ( my first time ) about what your wrote about Burgundy. They are fascinating…and I love your explanation of all the beautiful labels.

Yes - you did talk about the 2 extra names in your Chablis report.

I agree with you that Cote Bourguerots is a sub-climat of Bougros ( very similar to Meursault - Les Perrieres and meursault - Clos des Perrieres ) …and that La Moutonne is a very unique situation.

I also noted with interest ( and admire your effort ) of what you had writen about the 1ieme crus situation ( and the list of the names of 1ieme crus ) in Chassagne. You are right on when you talked about the *** A commonly sighted climat : Morgeots, a hug grouping of close to 20 1ieme crus amounting to just over 54 ha. ****

I adore what your wrote about Chassagne and would like to add that there is nothing more confusing than about INAO Laws governing the labels of the approximately 62 1ieme crus ( or climats or lieux-dites ) in Chassagne [soap.gif] It gave me head-ache when I read them ( or tried to understand them ).

To add more details in your Chassagne report regarding the 1ieme crus situation and its labels ( in Chassagne ) will, in my opinion, create more confusion [wow.gif] even to some seasoned Burgundy lovers.

Cheers [cheers.gif]