Knowing Alex and Graeme i’m sure they get a kick out of people liking their story but what really gets them going is people loving their wine. The story is the story but they are about the wine.
The people who love this story are the ones turning around and selling the wine for a profit on the secondary market, not holding onto their precious three bottle allocation and looking forward to the day they will drink it
I disagree. I love the wine and I love the story. I know Alex and enjoy his stories about how they think about the business.
I drink my wines and don’t sell them.
My point is that Steve and you are making some really reductive statements about what motivates wine drinkers. And that Steve is being unkind for thinking that he’s better than those who are attracted to a wine because of the brand and/or story.
I think the wording may be a bit harsh, but what they are saying is buyers are getting sucked into a story about the winery and not the wine itself. Hard to know about the quality of these wines when they are pricing themselves in that $400 range.
Then they should clarify what they’re saying. No one should be looking down upon someone else by feeling sorry for them (his words, not mine) just because they buy a wine based on the story.
Also, is it just about expensive Napa wines? By volume, it’s such a small percentage of the marketplace. When the non-wine nerd walks into a grocery store because they want a bottle in the $10-$20 range, and have little information because, well, they’re not a wine nerd, they look at brand and label. Does that make them worthy of being looked down upon?
Look, my point is that this kind of attitude, this view of other wine drinkers, is meanspirited and part of the reason why wine nerds have a reputation of being snobs. Why does anyone care what draws anyone else to a particular wine? So long as it makes them happy, why look down upon them?
Be kind.
This thread is specifically about expensive Napa wines. So in that regard, yes. Napa also gets a LOT of play on this board. We have beaten the topic to death and will continue to do so.
I agree with the rest of what you said however. Enjoy the wine in your glass, whatever that may be.
Everyone has thought this, but I think most of us have never heard a satisfying explanation for why it must necessarily be so, when really no other wine market operates that way.
Especially now, when new producers at this level come into the market with their first release priced at the maximum price point they think they can attain. Not too long ago, ambitious high end wine projects would come into the market at prices well below the highest price they could get, there would be long wait lists, high secondary market prices, people coveting their spots on the list and clawing to snap up their slowly growing allocations, and a buzz of excitement in the wine community about the brand.
In those examples, I can understand the slow build of the pricing, and the sense that their mailing list customers felt privileged to have gotten bottles of a wine whose pricing and value is rising. Once the pricing completed its inevitable climb up to FMV, I think many customers who had been along for the ride were still happy being there and paying full price for the wines. (Though I wouldn’t be surprised if more customers of a wine like Harlan which continued the climb on past FMV dropped off.)
But if your first release is a $300 cab and a $135 chardonnay, I don’t understand as much why that price point can never ever go lower. Or, maybe a more accurate way to put it is, I don’t understand why that price point can never go lower if the wine isn’t actually a vanity project and the customers aren’t trophy and prestige hunters.
I’m only an annual buyer of two premium Napa cab wineries, and they are ones with price points currently in the $100s who started in the overdelivering model I described rather than the maximum luxury price point model. If hypothetically in some future vintage, one of those producers came to its customers and said:
"With the way market forces and consumer demand is for premium Napa cabernet right now, the best thing for our winery and for our customers is that we are going to reset our release pricing at 15% lower for the new release, and then we will see where we go from there in future vintages based on costs, demand and the market.
We realize that our loyal customers may feel frustrated that they paid a higher price for last year’s vintage, but we will keep delivering wines of the same and ever-better quality to you in this vintage and into the future, and we hope that you realize that our adjusted pricing here is in the best interests of both you and the winery. We thank you for your understanding."
I would be very happy about that and not slighted/bitter in the least. I would probably order even more bottles from that vintage.
But maybe that is because those wineries are not the vanity projects of owners with 8+ figure net worth and their wines are not trophy flipping wines with luxury tasting studio experiences and all that. I’m buying them to get wines I enjoy drinking at prices that I can accept paying for the experience, not so I can show off to friends that I’m on the list or to put them in glass display cabinets.
Not Napa cab, but I’ve been buying Sea Smoke and Kosta Browne annually since their earliest years. If those wineries dropped prices next year, I’d be thrilled, and I would buy more wine from them.
Maybe my question at the end of the excessive rambling his this: if your business model and your customer base is such that you can’t ever be seen to reduce prices in order to reflect supply and demand, does that mean you and your customers might actually fit the negative stereotype of the luxury Napa cab brand?
Well, I happen to know both of them and Steve personally. And I’m not talking about just through a vineyard visit and sharing a bottle of wine but actually spending extended time with them. I know Steve well enough to know he does not think he is above any one like that but rather amused by the chasers. And I know the brothers similarly are all about the wine and honoring their grandparents. When people buy their wine and love it, that is about the best thing they could do to honor them. I’m not gonna speak for them but based upon spending extended time with them my impression is the marketing stuff is a necessary evil rather than the focus of what they do
Oh, and I’ve seen more than a few people drone on and on about how much they love the wine and the story only to see them throw their bottles on the secondary market once prices hit a certain level
Does your apartment also smell of rich mahogany?
Steve literally said that he feels sorry for those people who buy a wine because of brand/site. That doesn’t sound like amusement to me.
You still seem to be totally missing my point. Why do you care why other people buy/drink wine?
Rich Mahogany is about as far as you could get from either of them, Steve or I
Oh, and in the ultimate irony, why do you care what Steve or I think?
Oh, my rich mahogany joke wasn’t about the MacDonald brothers. It was in response to your suggestion that you’ve somehow got an edge here because you’ve spent time with them. I’ve also spent time with Alex beyond just a vineyard visit. Whoopee.
I care about the fact that Steve made a comment that looks down on other people for what they like. Sure, it’s the internet, so this is very low stakes. But I also like this board, and like the people on it, and don’t like when people post things that are demeaning and/or unkind, so I call people out on it. That’s why I care.
Well actually I kinda do 
i literally and figuratively did not say this. im gunna remove the learned friend tag if you keep this up 
“if anyone loves certain ‘brands or sites’, i truly feel sorry for them.”
this is what i literally said.
again, marc you gotta re-read what i said boss.
For my friends and myself the typical response to Napa wines not pricing to vintage quality is we only buy those wines in excellent vintages. If the vineyard feels it must still sell its 90 rated cab at $200+, in a poor vintage, just because it’s a Napa cab, we pass. This year’s mediocre Napa cab vintage might be a phenomenal CdP or BdM vintage. Put the money where the quality is, not on some name or story. With so many great wines out there, chasing wine lists unless flipping is the total intent, becomes rather foolish.
I think Gordon make a good point about looking elsewhere when Napa is facing a challenging vintage.
In my experience, even in difficult vintages, there are gems to be found.
While I certainly expect to buy more 2023 Napa Cabernet than I have 2022, there are some excellent wines to be had imho.
I have posted on other threads about Pezzato wines. A number of you are familiar with their Napa and ‘I Nonni’ Cabernets.
I had them both again on Monday evening.
I was struck how much the Napa had opened. The texture, purity of fruit and supple tannins make it a joy to drink. At $70 it is my pick for best QPR Napa Cab.
For me the I Nonni (think reserve) is like the Napa but ramped up a bit. More of everything I like about the Napa Cab. Not restrained but not over the top like many Cabs today. For me, the best 2022 Napa Cab I have tasted.
Someone told me they are currently offering free shipping (for the Holidays?) on the purchase of any 12 bottles which I find very attractive. As mentioned countless times on WB, shipping costs have gone way out of control.
Please check with the winery on the shipping.
I have been reading all these posts and this subtle thing grabbed me. You talk about loving this wine and how vintage quailty definitely effects your purchasing descions. And many are talking about how the story shouldn’t matter. I have a couple questions.
If you were on a list of a brand that was highly allocated and you would lose your allocation if you didn’t purchase, would you be okay falling off that list in what you would consider a “bad vintage” and not purchase? If your answer is “no”, why?
It is mentioned above that the winery you really like is offerring free shipping and that you can order a case of the wine (assuming you could do more if you wanted). Does that send off any flags for you about how that winery is doing? i.e. are you posting about them to get more people to buy the wine because they may be struffling and you are trying to help them? OR do you just like deals and free stuff and that is why you are excited about it.
And last, I love that you all love wine this much to agrue this much about it. When someone said they were going to remove them as a learned friend I didnt (and dont) know whar that means, but I laughed out loud. He sounded like a high school bully. (unless that is some kind of weird WB joke I don’t understand.)
All of you focus so heavily on price. You ask so much about why you can’t raise or lower the price. And many talk so quickly about going on the secondary market and purchasing, or only purchasing in good vintages, etc. I think most all companies are doing everything they can to develop brand loyalty whether that be via product quality, story, experineces, etc. They are looking to gather in close clients that believe in and trust in the brand. After reading this thread, I am starting to beleive that WB may be a group of consumers that really isn’t any wine brands target. You could say WB is a group of sophisticated buyer and purveyors of wine and you would probably be right. But in some ways it sounds like most contributors would turn on a brand immediately in a “bad” vintage and be more than happy to buy the wine cheaper somewhere else. If this is true (i am not saying it is good or bad) then just know, there aren’t any smart brands that would ever really consider any advice from that segment of client seriously.
2022 Dico at 75 might be my fave at the price level. Its very very good.
This level of hubris and dismissiveness might be a clue as to why the Napa model is struggling right now. No one owes you a purchase. Trust goes both ways.
Well yeah. It’s every companies dream to have their customers buy their goods or services without fail regardless of price, quality, or the relation between the two. I’m not wealthy enough to be in your demographic anyways but this reads more like looking for cult followers than customers.
I wonder how many of these there truly are at this point. Now that seemingly most of these high end Napa wines are priced by the winery fully up to or over their resale value, I would guess that most of them would not drop you for skipping a vintage.
Obviously, you wouldn’t want to skip a vintage of Screaming Eagle or MacDonald, but how many others are there like that?
Scarecrow is the only other one I can think of, but with the lack of demand and ever increasing pricing, I’m sometimes (not always) finding what I missed at DtC at lower prices in the distribution/secondary market, (including the aforementioned Scarecrow)