Wow, good memory:
OTOH, a bottle of Scotch contains about 15 drinks and a bottle of wine contains 4-5 drinks, so people might find it economical to be a whisky drinker instead of a wine connoisseur. I know, I know, comparing wine quality and whiskey quality is a tricky endeavor. But point is wine is expensive per glass for nice bottles. I do think $25-$50 is the sweet spot for price to quality ratio and you get diminishing returns (often) above that.
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The fact that a whiskey can be consumed after opened for a very long time also helps. I certainly feel way more comfortable spending much more on a bottle of whiskey than a bottle of wine.
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Add on top that thereās no need / benefit of aging a bottle of whiskey, especially in this age of instant gratification.
See also most madeirasā¦
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Damn this thread, I have just been and bought some 2016 FerriĆØre at Ā£47 a bottle.
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My two house wines (the Wallyās deal I posted in tempting wine offers nonwithstanding) donāt or barely qualify for this now (hudelot noellat and pycm Bourgogne)
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PYCM entry blanc is ~$60?
Curious what else youāve cycled through as house whit burg.
Just pycm 2017 bb, I bought 10 cases of it.
Strong move! Respect.
Yeah it was $29/btl with 10% off and free shipping when I bought it (from vinsrare) though, not the current pricing. Both of the Bourgognes were <30 when I stocked up.
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One name I havenāt seen mentioned in this thread is Chateau Capbern. Available around $30.
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Iām finishing up the last dregs of a 2000 Chauvin [St Emilion] which is 13.5% abv in an era, where that was lush/plump/bigā¦but the bottle is now in the tertiary stages of evolution - forest, iodine - and the acid is winning over the fruit now. Still likable, but more for a fan of all the styles/stages of Bordeaux, than are āpopular in its primeā example.
But this makes me follow up on an aside I had mentioned far upthread: other right bank Bordeaux names outside the prestige AOC of St Emilion and Pomerol. There are tons of these, and the odds that if they make their way to the US at a fine wine merchant, theyāll be solid and develop in bottle.
Some names Iāve liked over the years, with the qualification that consistency in consumption of a name is unlikely.
Lalande de Pomerol:
de Chambrun - lots of ownership changes, but some years have been ageable, power examples, sort of like mini versions of Gazin.
Les Cruzelles - Denis Durantouās family is involved, and Iāve drunk a bunch of the 1998, but include this more out of a caution to try a bottle before loading up. Itās on my āpassā list personally.
La Fleur de Bouard - I like it, and it can keep, but will be controversial on WB perhaps due to the owners, or its style. Try it and taste it without preconceptions. Priced far above AOC norms.
Siaurac- Iāve only tasted one (peak) vintage, but it made me a believer. Not easy to find.
Lussac St Emilion:
Courlat: Iāve only tasted peak vintages (like 2005) but they were good and held well for a decade.
Montagne St Emilion
Faizeau: They have multiple bottlings, but the VV is the one to buy as there is a big qualitative difference between the base blend and the old vine plot. (I got tricked with that with a secondary / auction purchase once).
Maison Blanche: From the same family which owns a favorite - Grand Corbin Despagne - but for whatever reasons, I do not care for this vineyard at least in the two solid vintages I have tasted.
Cotes de Castillon:
Ch. diāAiguilhe-Querre: not easy to find, but my 2005ās drank well for 15+ years. I think the brand/name is gone now?
Ch. dāAuigulhe: pretty good for the AOC, but donāt expect medium term cellaringā¦
Cap de Faugeres: I liked them much more when I was younger, but itās still solid. I had a 2015 recently, and it seems to be still in the same fruity/chunky mold.
Pitray: I know Mark is positive on recent vintages, but my only experiences with (older) ones were middling. Try it for yourself.
Cotes de Francs
de Francs: My 2000ās lasted and improved way longer than expected.
Marsau: Iāve had a half dozen vintages (better ones) and they keep / improve / develop far beyond the AOC expectation.
Puygueraud: the few Iāve tried have been good. From the Thienpont family, which has many fine right banks.
Fronsac:
de Carles: the ones Iāve tried, and their luxe cuvee, have been powerful amped out examples.
Dalem: probably the template for an export worthy quality satellite right bank.
Fontenil: I like their wines, and they last, but those who are cool to the Rolland touch (double in this case!) should taste before buying blind.
La Dauphine: limited tasting experience, but I like.
Richelieu: a range of bottling names, but the peak examples Iāve tried were good, when young.
La Vielle Cure: probably a controversial pick on WB given the American ownershipās preference for max volume (this goes to 11!) but Iāve liked the years Iāve had. Lots of tannin, and beautiful labels to gaze at as you swirl your tongue around trying to get the grit out of your mouth.
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There are other AOCās which Iāll to touch on later. As I get to the end of this note I am now drinking a thin/grapey young Janoueix Lalande de Pomerol that I am not familiar withā¦and itās underwhelming. Maybe breathing will help.
For the most part these are all wines that - I think - consumers should be opportunistic about buying. I do not think they really merit extra efforts to find i.e. mail order. In my case Chambrun and Marsau were the only ones I have consistently tried to hunt down, since I thought they were a bit special in this category.
If one is in the footprint/shipping zone of a direct importer, one can really tilt the odds in their favor by trying a few of their names. Those will usually have the plus of potentially being available on an ongoing basis too. One will probably have to live without the comfort of recent professional critical reviews, but a merchant who has to buy 112 cases will have some āsweat and bloodā in the game too.
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Nice write-up, Arv.
I had the 2019 Les Cruzelles last night, after I opened the bottle on Friday and had a glass, without enjoying it that much, very primary, as perhaps one would expect. This Sunday night it had opened up, fleshed out and was starting to peek through into the red spectrum. Was a nice bottle of wine for under $30.
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I bought a single bottle of the 2019 after reading some encouraging reviews, including from Jeff Leve. I found the wine lush, deep fruited, well balanced, easy drinking enjoyment and an impressive wine for ~$25. I bought three more to have on hand for anytime drinking. The first of these three that I opened had none of the lush fruit and easy drinking enjoyment that appealed to me. Shut down or bottle variation, but I have lost my initial enthusiasm for the wine.
BTW, thanks for putting this list together Arv. I will be on the lookout for some of these. 
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With the understanding that there are a hundred different variables that influence needed cellar capacity, what do you imagine is a ballpark for the minimum cellar capacity to support this theme?
Given those variables, I honestly have no idea how to answer this.
If I could go back in time, and of course I had the money I have today versus when I was a kid, 2000 would be the right number. But when I started into this wine hobby, I was young, money was limited and spread out in various other pursuits, so I started small. Bought a wine fridge for 250 then grew from that. I still do not have a cohesive strategy and have wine spread out in various places, but mostly offsite storage. Living in Florida with exposure to hurricanes and power outages, offsite storage works best for me.
If I were just taking a flyer here, I would say somebody could immediately start the foundation of an excellent long-term cellar buying say 10-15 or so cases from each these various, recent and very good to excellent vintages, 2016, 19, 20 and apparently perhaps 2022. So say 500 bottles. Thatās a lot to plonk down for most, so maybe try a strategy of building into it, say 10 cases of 2016 to start. I realize that is still a lot of money all at once, and one can still do what we are talking about more slowly as money comes in and time moves on. The difficulty is keeping your paws off the wine as they mature!
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For many years, our cellar was between 25-30 cases and that worked fine for providing variety in across types and vintages. Size was mostly a fiscal constraint because once able to afford more cellar ballooned to probably five times that size. I donāt inventory so donāt have an exact number. Also what was one shared cellar is now three cellars; mine, hers, and homemade.
The increased size allows for better coverage obviously but not sure that it is all needed. I have many categories now where I have way more than we consume. It is easy to think that a mixed case of Mencia isnāt excessive but when we drink one to two bottles a year, that is almost a decadeās supply.
If I could go back and apply restraint, I would probably cap the cellar at 50 cases plus whatever we make from our home vineyard. That seems like a more reasonable number to balance variety and vintages and allow some depth where it makes sense but force me to not collect too much of things seldom consumed.
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Iāve mentioned it a few times; pretty good wine. Iāve liked it since I had it about 8-9 years ago at k&l bdx tasting.
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@RyanM (and @Robert.A.Jr) - based on this and earlier similar threads I have been buying a bit of wine the last three years and my passive cellar is approaching 1K bottles which (at least to me) is a good number overall, things will probably slow down from here. Roberts advice on Bordeaux (like 1/2 of my loot) was priceless.
Search for i.e. # retirement cellar # time to be stocking your cellar # Thought Experiment. Build a Collection # . These threads have been great food for thought for me. I found some great advice here.
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