Agreed. That’s where I’m at. But the technicals on this vintage are interesting. Freshness and low alcohol and less tannic than recent vintages. I WANTED to load up this vintage. But needed a little more incentive. I got a few bottles. No cases though.
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There is wisdom in waiting till the end of the campaign. This way you can look at the full picture, and deciding what makes sense and what doesn’t.
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2026 UGC tasting is my recommendation. 
You’ll find the incentive when you taste the wines that you are probably going to want.
This has/is a fun thread. Too be fair you could have seen this train coming from a million miles away (it happens every year!!!).
Here is my summary for posterity.
- The EP process has some flaws. Ultimately, if it is not less expensive for the consumer to buy up front OR demand is limited ----it really serves no consumer benefit.
- There is some great value to be found, and some super wines…If I can buy Giscours at 50$ why would I ever buy NAPA.
- Building on point 2…This should scare the crap out of NAPA!
- Not really getting the “poor farmer” part of the thread, but then again I am a capitalist.
- In closing, there are some terrific wines at great price…do you NEED to buy them EP?-----probably not but I do every year!
- I wish TotalWine would find more 375’s
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For all Ian’s spirited defense, this is the nub. Massive decreases based on very high, artificially high, numbers from the previous year. The fact that Livex , trade and critics still hold onto this ridiculous idea that the decreases are massive, is basically an insult to the consumers’ intelligence.
As a consumer, you take the final number, and then compare to what is currently available. To buy into all these price drops, however massive, clearly is the wrong way to look at things.
As for the idea that threads on this board may adversely affect jobs, that is somewhat ludicrous. The blame should not be thrown at the consumer, but instead at the chateaux and their ridiculous pricing strategy that has made it such a circus.
The worker at Canon pruning the vines next year will still have a job; the massive build up of inventory may put some of the trade jobs in jeopardy.
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Let’s hope no one loses their jobs, but what happens if wines don’t sell for another vintage?
How did they do in 1983? It’s my birthyear and I try to buy them when I find them. I’ve found it pretty inconsistent. Margaux has been stellar but some others have been somewhat disappointing. (Heck, a Meyney was great last year!)
Well this is a marginal cost vs. marginal revenue and margin discussion no?
The vineyard can:
(i) Reduce volume to maintain price > lay off workers
(ii) Maintain volumes and lower price > no worker layoffs
The question is what are their margins? I suspect the larger Chateaus can significantly drop price if needed and still make more profit than cutting production.
The smaller Chateaus at lower price points and margins however, the equation may be completely different.
This is a free market economy, if the wine isn’t selling there is a reason, and unfortunately those workers may need to be laid off.
As in any other industry, if demand declines, employment declines. Why should wine be any different from CDs, Print newspapers etc., as unfortunate as it maybe?
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What if that “larger” Chateaux (I think you mean in name and quality, not necessarily by size) is making large scale capital investments to make better wine? AXA made massive capital investments at both Pichon Baron and Suduiraut to make far better wines. Are they just supposed to eat those costs now?
Properties like L’eglise Clinet aren’t making that much wine, so dropping the price isn’t as easy as say Lafite, which has a far larger production.
I think you’ve over simplified this.
If the investments are so substantial that they cannot now recoup those costs in the form of price increases then…yeah? Why is that my problem?
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You think they made those investments thinking that they were going to drop prices and still struggle to sell wine? (this comment is not specific to PB, I have no idea how well the wine did outside my four walls today.)
Then unfortunately that is just capital misallocation.
Should Toyota get back the billions of dollars it sunk in long range EV tech that it has now shelved ?
Can it do that by raising prices for consumers for its gas engine / hybrid vehicles ? No, because the market won’t bear it.
I think you are (understandably) given you’re ITB, sympathetic toward winemakers that are at the end of the day, for profit companies. To earn profit you have to risk capital. Simple as that.
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This is so bizarre
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Yeah… I’m not buying the don’t be honest because of people in the industry argument. Should people ignore Boeing’s safety issues because of the investments they’ve made and all of the people who rely on that company? I don’t think anyone is trying to be disrespectful of anyone else’s efforts, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be honest about what is going on.
But! I will say… the fact that producers in Bordeaux have a pricing model that is at all receptive to vintage quality and the market has me seriously re-evaluating my Napa purchases where you feel like you have to say thank you for a three bottle allocation in an OK to mediocre year.
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And this is EXACTLY why this thread is confusing the hell out of me.
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Ummm…Toyota did raise prices. By 19% between 2019 and 2023.
And yes, I very much am sympathetic to the producers, but more specifically, the ones pushing the envelope of quality. There is some really great wine being made throughout the world right now. We should be embracing it. I know that there is a ton of score fatigue and we are all sick of hearing about the vintage of the century. I have a lot of sympathy for the consumer too, but it has never been a better time to a wine collector if not for the quality that we are seeing.
FWIW, my business isn’t really selling new release wine, it heavily relies on selling top top wines of all vintages. I just have found a new love of Bordeaux by traveling there, tasting the wines, and meeting the people.
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Which is in real terms, 0%. IE. No price increase.
The other thing is of course cars rarely appreciate as they get older, a 2019 Camry is less desirable than a 2023.
Whereas in wine, for a vintage of similar quality the older one is in theory more desirable, and someone else has paid the holding cost.
Wine producers are in a sticky predicament, no doubt, but I fail to see why a consumer should be paying a price above what the market bears.
If we take an example of Pichon Baron, they released in 2019 at 1188 GBP per 12, and in 2022 at 1620 a 37% increase, or 18% ahead of inflation. Today they released at £1234. I do actually think that is a fair price in isolation. However it does not account for the fact I can get 2016 at £1200, which is a better vintage, with bottle age. There is too much wine in the market, and something has to give to sell new releases.
In fact a cynic could say EP today seems increasingly like price discrimination, preying on those loyal to a brand and willing to pay, with Chateau’s knowing it will be available in the market in 2 years at 10% less than release. They are taking advantage.
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How is that real terms? 19% increase is a 19% increase, plain and simple.
You can’t compare cars to perishable goods either, but let’s compare wine to wine.
The issue isn’t production. The issue is consumption. The wine collector market is buying wine at a far higher rate than they can consume the wines. Bordeaux used to be purchased as both consumption and investment. Your investment in a wine can’t go up if the supply isn’t going down.
Not sure where you are buying 2016 Pichon Baron for that price, but the cheapest USD price is $145 (looks like only 1 in stock too) then immediately jumps to $165.
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$127 / £99 IB in UK, where I buy.
I’m afraid if we can’t agree on nominal versus real and their meanings, then we will have to agree to disagree on this point. $118 in 2023 is the same as $100 in 2019.
Edit: On your supply demand point, I absolutely agree. Either volume needs to come down for prices to go up, or if the Chateau’s choose to maintain volumes, they need to lower prices to sell through in today’s climate. As per my original post.
Enjoyed the conversation and your POV.
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Interesting release from Le Dome.
Translated from French.
“In Saint-Emilion, Le Dôme will not be released as a primeur. Its general manager Nicolas Robl explains his decision and discusses the commercial disaster that Bordeaux is experiencing.
The press release from the Saint-Emilion estate, Le Dôme, received this Friday, May 31, does not brag: “We would like to inform you that, this year, due to the current economic context and our reduced production volume, we have decided not to organize a primeur release.”
The estates concerned are Le Dôme, Château Mazerat, Château Teyssier and Château Laforge. All four have always been released as primeurs. A phone call to the general manager of the Bordeaux estate sheds light on the situation. “In Bordeaux, the primeur campaign is a disaster,” says Nicolas Robl. Last year Le Dôme was released at 160 euros (château release price, editor’s note), Château Mazerat at 68 euros, Laforge at 24 euros, Teyssier at 13.50 euros.
We could already feel a decline in terms of volumes. The market was supposed to be more or less saturated with Bordeaux wines. But this year, the wine is not selling. We are going to find ourselves, at the Dôme, with 150,000 bottles on our hands. We are going to have to carry it." And he continues: "We called our customers. We could have found ways to sell by lowering prices by 50%. The market expects prices lower than or equal to those of 2019. But we do not want to lower prices in this way. It would destroy the brand and put distributors and importers in difficulty.
The customer will ask them for accounts. (…) The market in general is in a catastrophic state. Entire markets, such as Norway, have planned not to buy Bordeaux before mid-2025. There is no more Bordeaux in the calls for tender. Nobody needs it today. There is going to be a lot of damage. And it is very likely that the situation will repeat itself next year. I think the market is not going to change by 2026."
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