A contrary take on a simple red Burgundy

[Richard_Malloy]

@Craig G

@A.Gillette

Don’s example of the $50 H-N vosne might be a nice drink. I can’t comment because I haven’t had it, but I’ve had good experiences with the H-N vosne 1er crus. There is one problem, which is that Don’s $50 2012 H-N vosne doesn’t actually exist. The wine costs $60. So I’m not sure that is a great example.

It may not be available now but that wasn’t a crazy price. I paid $45 at Wine Club. I don’t think they changed the price from the 2011. I think the Chambolle is easier to find and it’s good too at the same price.

Nice price! I’m in wine-locked Mass, and just got the offer (Vosne, Chambolle, NSG)s - $64 for the 2012s (I’d be all over them at $45!), and $56 for the 2011s.

[Howard_Cooper]

@A.Gillette

I’m a burgundy lover and frequent burgundy drinker. About 90% of my cellar is burgundy (down from 100% a few years ago). While I now buy almost exclusively grand and premier crus wines, I’ve got plenty of village wines from years past. It is now incredibly rare that I walk into a wine store with a $50 target and find a burgundy that I have any interest in drinking. Even roulot bourgogne has now crossed the $50 mark. Burgeut’s favorites is no longer a bargain. Leroy’s '09 bourgogne rouge and '02 bourgogne grand ordinaire were the last two wines that I can think of really wanting in that price range. Frankly, at that price range, I would much rather have pinot noir from the jura, cab franc, chenin blanc or muscadet from the loire, or some of the more interesting things going on in California (see Ross Massey’s thread on winemakers living on the edge). Cheers to you if you are still finding great burgundy for under $50, but for those who aren’t I’m right there with you and the good news is that there is an ocean of great wine at that price point!
A

Try 2007s. For example, I bought a Chandon de Briailles PV Illes des Vergelesses for $30 that was quite nice.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Robert Alfert

@A.Gillette

And, if you include Beaujolais cru in your definition of burgindy, then things at the lower end start to look pretty good.

Pardon me for intruding on this thread as I have zero Burgundy cred, and only one bottle in my modest cellar, but I do have tons of Beaujolais and drink them quite regularly. Isn’t this the answer to the question? Do you Burgophiles consider Beaujolais your “every-day” QPR alternative when not popping your whoppers? There is a broad range of really wonderful Beaujolais in that sub-$25 USD range. And ever so food friendly. Scandalous indeed, but I had a Chateau Thivin with spicey sushi last night.

I am sure the Chateau Thivin will be quite nice. I had a 2012 from them recently and it was very good. But, it did not remind me of Burgundy. Sometimes that can change with age, but to me whereas Macons can be a substitute for white Burgundy at a good price, Beaujolais and red Burgundy are apples and organges.

[Dav1dZ]

@Doug Schulman

@Corey Miller

I love both cru Beaujolais and Red Burgundy, but to me they have very little in common – different grapes, different terroir, different winemaking techniques. If I have a Burgundy itch, drinking Beaujolais won’t scratch it, and vice versa.

I agree when it comes to young wines, except with winemaking techniques, which can be very similar with certain Beaujolais producers. With mature wines, though, I completely disagree.

The mature Beajolais that I’ve had tasted like delicious, integrated bottles of Gamay, which is to say nothing like Burgundy (except insofar as all older wines start to taste like each other and will be confused for each other blind).

[Alex_Rychlewski]

D Zylerberberg wrote:

“I totally disagree with Alex’s comment. As prices have gone up all over in Burgundy, I personally think quality has vastly improved at the lower levels”.

What would Internet boards be without disagreement? .

I think you need to factor at least two things into the equation.

One is that Bordeaux has also made vast improvements in winemaking in recent years.
And the other is the question of value for money. Cheap Burgundy is expensive compared to Bordeaux.

So, I don’t deny that the lower end of the scale in Burgundy has improved, or that good things cannot be found there. It’s just that in the 6 to 10 euro a bottle range, let’s say, Burgundy is not top banana.

Of course, when talking about wine quality there is no objective yardstick.

Please be aware that I am a huge fan of unsung good value wines everywhere and and also love Burgundy. It’s just that no region can have everything. And thank goodness for the diversity of the beverage we all love!

Best regards,
Alex R.

[Ian_Fitzsimmons]

The dimension of similarity I’m finding between good red Burgundy and good cru Beaujolais is that of high, clear, bright acidity. I’ve been drinking 2005 moulin-a-vent and fleurie from Vissoux and Granger, and the acid structure the emerges from the is strikingly fine and persistent - especially striking, because Gamay fruit is often so plush and heavy in youth. The fruit and aromatic overtones between Gamay-based Beaujolais and Pinot-based Burgundy, however, do not converge in any meaningful way that I can discern.

[Dav1dZ]

Apples to oranges though - cab is cheaper to grow than pinot. The real question is whether burgundy is any more expensive than the other options when you want to have a pinot. And my experience is that if you’re going to spend $40 on a bottle of Pinot these days, you’re generally getting the most bang for the buck in Burgundy.

[Paul_H_Galli]

I’ve been a serious drinker of Burgundy for 40 yrs and I never have had any problems finding fine Pinot for under $50…

TTT

[M_Dildine]

OK Paul, where can I find great Burgundy under $50 here on the Monterey Peninsula?

[Howard_Cooper]

@Paul H Galli

I’ve been a serious drinker of Burgundy for 40 yrs and I never have had any problems finding fine Pinot for under $50…

TTT

Agreed.

[A_Songeur]

To say that Burgundy wines are too expensive is hardly contrarian… I would say that to claim you can find great Burgundy below 50 US$ is becoming mors contrarian…

[Paul_H_Galli]

@M. Dildine

OK Paul, where can I find great Burgundy under $50 here on the Monterey Peninsula?

Nowhere to be found here.
I get most of my wine thru the Internet.

And I never said “Great”.

TTT

[Paul_H_Galli]

@A Songeur

To say that Burgundy wines are too expensive is hardly contrarian… I would say that to claim you can find great Burgundy below 50 US$ is becoming mors contrarian…

Again, I never said “Great”…

TTT

[Peter_Chiu]

Let go back to basic.

Burgundy is not meant to be crafted to please everyone.

Substance is not style and style is not substance.

If one likes Burugndy wine then it is fine. Then one needs to look for the style ( of the Burgundy wine ) which he prefers - hence…producers. producers and producers.

If one does not like it then it is called : favour water .

Please do not over do it ( or to like it )…

[Howard_Cooper]

@Peter Chiu

Let go back to basic.

Burgundy is not meant to be crafted to please everyone.

Substance is not style and style is not substance.

If one likes Burugndy wine then it is fine. Then one needs to look for the style ( of the Burgundy wine ) which he prefers - hence…producers. producers and producers.

If one does not like it then it is called : favour water .

Please do not over do it ( or to like it )…

Going off what Peter says, I love red Burgundy, even well-made less expensive red Burgundy. This is not something new, people have loved red Burgundy for over 1000 years.

If you don’t, there is a simple solution. DON’T BUY IT. Please do not think I care whether or not you like it. I am really not about to defend my love of Burgundy to you people.

[paul_hanna]

Never had an '09 that even looked remotely like it was closed (and I have probably had hundreds…)

A good example a few weeks ago was an Anne Gros Richebourg…totally open and drinking remarkably well.

Never had a great M Gros wine, although his Clos des Reas is usually Ok for it’s level.

Agree that Bourgogne and Village are mostly very overpriced, and massively under deliver. A few producers do make ok to good wines, but they are now expensive for what they are, and I would only buy anyway in great vintages like '05 and '10.

As a QPR, I would buy US Pinots over lower level (red) Burgs. all day (if only I could).

[A_Gillette]

^ Paul - have you had many of the '09 Fourrier? I thought they closed down shortly after release. I agree with everything else you said.
A

[paul_hanna]

Had the Gevrey VV a couple of times.

Thought that it looked (like many '09’s) too ripe on release.

18 Months later and it looked to have settled better as it is starting to lose it’s primary fruit (again, as many '09s seem to also be doing).

[Sebastian_C]

@paul hanna

Never had an '09 that even looked remotely like it was closed (and I have probably had hundreds…)

A good example a few weeks ago was an Anne Gros Richebourg…totally open and drinking remarkably well.

Never had a great M Gros wine, although his Clos des Reas is usually Ok for it’s level.

Agree that Bourgogne and Village are mostly very overpriced, and massively under deliver. A few producers do make ok to good wines, but they are now expensive for what they are, and I would only buy anyway in great vintages like '05 and '10.

As a QPR, I would buy US Pinots over lower level (red) Burgs. all day (if only I could).

Interesting point. On the back of burgundy QPR recommendations from previous threads I got some Pavelot(2009 Domaine PavelotSavigny-lès-Beaune) and 2010 Domaine Pavelot Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru La Dominode. The first was ok. Rustic, red fruit and tart, but one dimensional. Similar to some Santenay 1er and villages I have had. I opened this wine next to a 2009 Au Bon Climat “La Bauge Au-Dessus” and the ABC blew it out of the water(Same price point as both cost around $28). Both wines are light bodied but the ABC was so much more interesting. I will not comment on the Dominode as I suspect it needs time as many have mentioned.

[Kevin_M_L]

I finished the M Gros. I noticed when cleaning up that the empty bottle was extremely fragrant the next day without any oxidation odors, which is a characteristic I usually associate with good wines. I think my final impression is that I wasn’t moved by the wine, and I still think it’s overpriced, but I had underestimated I and can understand why others like it.

I followed it with a 2001 Gaja Ca’ Marcanda Magari (via Pungo) that I assumed would be both over-the-hill and overpriced at $45. Wrong and wrong. It’s excellent.